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    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Better, but still horrific. Looks like a lowered Cayenne.

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    The Rapide is a beautiful, but absolutely useless design as a four door sports sedan. I crawled in and out of one several times at the Geneva show last year, and the back seat is tiny and cramped. A prime example of design over function.

    I agree that the prototype pictures look bulky, but I do not agree with anyone else on this thread that it is a stretched media prank, etc. You guys are talking to yourselves, showing your usual biases. The Panamera's problem won't be its design--it will be whether or not there are enough buyers (in a very crowded niche) that will jump to a new brand.

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Quote:
    Wonderbar said:
    The Rapide is a beautiful, but absolutely useless design as a four door sports sedan. I crawled in and out of one several times at the Geneva show last year, and the back seat is tiny and cramped. A prime example of design over function.

    I agree that the prototype pictures look bulky, but I do not agree with anyone else on this thread that it is a stretched media prank, etc. You guys are talking to yourselves, showing your usual biases. The Panamera's problem won't be its design--it will be whether or not there are enough buyers (in a very crowded niche) that will jump to a new brand.



    I think it's the other way around:
    If anyone is able to make this a success, you can bet your shirt it will be Porsche. With their current momentum and brand value, they could probably rebadge a Lada and still manage to sell it with huge profits.
    No doubt people will look at the design, but the Porsche brand is so powerful in itself, that even a less-than-perfect design will be no actual threat to sales.
    Just look at the Cayenne.

    The challenge you point to, whether buyers will jump to a new brand wont be the issue IMO.
    AFAIK there are no other manufaturer offering a car like the Panamera with the same brand value as Porsche.
    Unless Rolls Royce or Ferrari makes a similar car, choosing the Panamera will be a jump up the brand ladder for all clients.

    You're right that useless design won't work in the long run, just as your example demonstrates.
    The Panamera design looks practical - and very very dull.
    It looks more like a clever marketing strategy than a company trying to demonstrate what they have held as a cornerstone value for decades: Superior and useful design.

    It looks like something you would expect from Lexus - it's bulky, big and anything but elegant, sleek and Porsche-like.

    Porsche is in a unique situation, where they could easily afford making bolder designs than that. Some would argue that they cannot afford NOT to make bold designs.
    Unless the prototype on the pics is hiding a totally different car underneath, I think Porsche in the long run will lose a lot of potential Panamera clients to e.g. Audi. Despite the brandvalue of Porsche.

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Some good points, Dr. Phil. I agree that Porsche could take a bolder step (as I think it could have with the 997TT), so we will watch and wait. Thanks for the reply...

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    Quote:
    Wonderbar said:
    The Rapide is a beautiful, but absolutely useless design as a four door sports sedan. I crawled in and out of one several times at the Geneva show last year, and the back seat is tiny and cramped. A prime example of design over function.

    I agree that the prototype pictures look bulky, but I do not agree with anyone else on this thread that it is a stretched media prank, etc. You guys are talking to yourselves, showing your usual biases. The Panamera's problem won't be its design--it will be whether or not there are enough buyers (in a very crowded niche) that will jump to a new brand.



    I think it's the other way around:
    If anyone is able to make this a success, you can bet your shirt it will be Porsche. With their current momentum and brand value, they could probably rebadge a Lada and still manage to sell it with huge profits.
    No doubt people will look at the design, but the Porsche brand is so powerful in itself, that even a less-than-perfect design will be no actual threat to sales.
    Just look at the Cayenne.

    The challenge you point to, whether buyers will jump to a new brand wont be the issue IMO.
    AFAIK there are no other manufaturer offering a car like the Panamera with the same brand value as Porsche.
    Unless Rolls Royce or Ferrari makes a similar car, choosing the Panamera will be a jump up the brand ladder for all clients.

    You're right that useless design won't work in the long run, just as your example demonstrates.
    The Panamera design looks practical - and very very dull.
    It looks more like a clever marketing strategy than a company trying to demonstrate what they have held as a cornerstone value for decades: Superior and useful design.

    It looks like something you would expect from Lexus - it's bulky, big and anything but elegant, sleek and Porsche-like.

    Porsche is in a unique situation, where they could easily afford making bolder designs than that. Some would argue that they cannot afford NOT to make bold designs.
    Unless the prototype on the pics is hiding a totally different car underneath, I think Porsche in the long run will lose a lot of potential Panamera clients to e.g. Audi. Despite the brandvalue of Porsche.



    Totally agree, Doc,

    As a current Audi S4 (and soon RS4) owner, and Porschephile hoping Porsche will make a killer family sedan, I'm afraid they are going to Caymanize the project, making sure the car is slower than a base 911 Carrera.

    Porsche never has, and never will, win clients over on slick styling; no their attraction has always been a fundamental sporty ride with reliability. They will never attract the MB/BMW/Lexus crowd in any decent numbers with a $120K+ four-door copycat sedan that is possibly slower and definitely less pretty than the competition....

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    I think many of you will have to eat your words when you will see the real thing.
    It will be stunning I believe.
    And the looks , room and Porsche image will make it a succes

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Quote:
    993S said:
    I think many of you will have to eat your words when you will see the real thing.
    It will be stunning I believe.
    And the looks , room and Porsche image will make it a succes



    No offense but stunning design doesn't apply to Porsche, does it? I'm a Porsche lover too don't get me wrong.

    Stunning would be Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lambo...

    Porsche has had stunning performance history but not design, really .

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    993S said:
    I think many of you will have to eat your words when you will see the real thing.
    It will be stunning I believe.
    And the looks , room and Porsche image will make it a succes



    No offense but stunning design doesn't apply to Porsche, does it? I'm a Porsche lover too don't get me wrong.

    Stunning would be Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lambo...

    Porsche has had stunning performance history but not design, really .



    let's wait and see

    btw , to me the CGT is stunning , the 550 spyder in its time was stunning. Even the very first 928 was stunning in my eyes. When I first saw that car I in 77 I thought it was from an other planet.

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    I agree CGT and 550 are different story .

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    Quote:
    Wonderbar said:
    The Rapide is a beautiful, but absolutely useless design as a four door sports sedan. I crawled in and out of one several times at the Geneva show last year, and the back seat is tiny and cramped. A prime example of design over function.

    I agree that the prototype pictures look bulky, but I do not agree with anyone else on this thread that it is a stretched media prank, etc. You guys are talking to yourselves, showing your usual biases. The Panamera's problem won't be its design--it will be whether or not there are enough buyers (in a very crowded niche) that will jump to a new brand.



    I think it's the other way around:
    If anyone is able to make this a success, you can bet your shirt it will be Porsche. With their current momentum and brand value, they could probably rebadge a Lada and still manage to sell it with huge profits.
    No doubt people will look at the design, but the Porsche brand is so powerful in itself, that even a less-than-perfect design will be no actual threat to sales.
    Just look at the Cayenne.

    The challenge you point to, whether buyers will jump to a new brand wont be the issue IMO.
    AFAIK there are no other manufaturer offering a car like the Panamera with the same brand value as Porsche.
    Unless Rolls Royce or Ferrari makes a similar car, choosing the Panamera will be a jump up the brand ladder for all clients.

    You're right that useless design won't work in the long run, just as your example demonstrates.
    The Panamera design looks practical - and very very dull.
    It looks more like a clever marketing strategy than a company trying to demonstrate what they have held as a cornerstone value for decades: Superior and useful design.

    It looks like something you would expect from Lexus - it's bulky, big and anything but elegant, sleek and Porsche-like.

    Porsche is in a unique situation, where they could easily afford making bolder designs than that. Some would argue that they cannot afford NOT to make bold designs.
    Unless the prototype on the pics is hiding a totally different car underneath, I think Porsche in the long run will lose a lot of potential Panamera clients to e.g. Audi. Despite the brandvalue of Porsche.



    Totally agree, Doc,

    As a current Audi S4 (and soon RS4) owner, and Porschephile hoping Porsche will make a killer family sedan, I'm afraid they are going to Caymanize the project, making sure the car is slower than a base 911 Carrera.




    I agree with all that.




    Quote:
    993S said:
    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    993S said:
    I think many of you will have to eat your words when you will see the real thing.
    It will be stunning I believe.
    And the looks , room and Porsche image will make it a succes



    No offense but stunning design doesn't apply to Porsche, does it? I'm a Porsche lover too don't get me wrong.

    Stunning would be Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lambo...

    Porsche has had stunning performance history but not design, really .



    the very first 928 was stunning in my eyes. When I first saw that car I in 77 I thought it was from an other planet.



    In many people's eyes, including most of the public that see mine, IT IS TIMELESS. It is one of the best looking cars ever designed. I bought one because that is what I always believed.

    Now i get to throw in a gratuitous 928 pic. My interior, still a timeless design on the inside with the moveable pod shape, 22+ year old porsche leather still looks showroom except for the steering wheel, but its comfortable like a baseball glove.

    And in to the equation what the average car looked like in November 84 when this 85 euro came off the line and you have to say Porsche can make a STUNNING design. Then again the same guys who designed were building the 917 and 956.

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    No offense but stunning design doesn't apply to Porsche, does it? I'm a Porsche lover too don't get me wrong.
    Stunning would be Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lambo...
    Porsche has had stunning performance history but not design, really .



    I agree to some extent.
    Stunning design is not Porsches trademark, altho EFFECTIVE/USEFUL design definately is one of Porsche's key values.

    But if you dissect the design of almost any sportscar out there, the good ones (the ones we hail as icons or milestones) have a mixture of beauty and ugliness. An almost perfect design, almost perfect lines...and then they add a dissonant detail, line or element. Just to keep it fresh, to make us feel both attracted and repulsed at the same time.

    The bad ones are usually the designs that are foreseeable, predictable and so nice that noone will really notice.

    Ferrari has some great designs, but also some of the ugliest ever made.
    Check out some of the work from the 70s and 80s, and you wont believe something that ugly could ever leave the drawing board.

    I like the overall look of an F360 of 430. Its precense is stunning and the lines sleek and beautiful.
    But look at the front? Only a mother could love a child with eyes that far apart. It looks like an alien! Butt-ugly IMO. And thats what makes the 430 worth looking at again and again.
    Kinda like the Japanese gardeners, who uses ugly light to make the flowrs look beautiful.
    The art is not only in creating beauty, but pairing beauty with "ugliness" or some kind of contrast.

    Most of Porsches designs are conservative and forseeable, but destinct.
    Porsches design is more a matter of company philosophy than a matter of taste and design.
    Porsche has opted to make the 911 silhouette their primary asset and trademark. Hence the design will always have the same base, and be interpretations of the exactly same theme.
    Built on a 50 year old design idea, that has been tweaked and adjusted ever since.
    The 928 and 550 are different. The CGT also, altho the CGT is clearly inspired by the 996 and 550 design.
    Is the CGT beautiful? The lines are awesome...and then it looks like the designers couldnt agree on making it a speedster with those classic rocketshaped thingies behind the seats, or a coupe.
    So they made some butt-ugly inbetween solution.
    But it's destinct! And its part of why the CGT is the CGT.

    The Panamera will be long, sleek and lower than most sedans, so for those reasons alone it wont blend in with the rest of the traffic.
    But the design itself is so dull and predictable, that you could easily mistake it for a mid-ninties Lexus.
    It's not great design, but it is clever marketing.

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    No offense but stunning design doesn't apply to Porsche, does it? I'm a Porsche lover too don't get me wrong.
    Stunning would be Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lambo...
    Porsche has had stunning performance history but not design, really .



    I agree to some extent.
    Stunning design is not Porsches trademark, altho EFFECTIVE/USEFUL design definately is one of Porsche's key values.

    But if you dissect the design of almost any sportscar out there, the good ones (the ones we hail as icons or milestones) have a mixture of beauty and ugliness. An almost perfect design, almost perfect lines...and then they add a dissonant detail, line or element. Just to keep it fresh, to make us feel both attracted and repulsed at the same time.

    The bad ones are usually the designs that are foreseeable, predictable and so nice that noone will really notice.

    Ferrari has some great designs, but also some of the ugliest ever made.
    Check out some of the work from the 70s and 80s, and you wont believe something that ugly could ever leave the drawing board.

    I like the overall look of an F360 of 430. Its precense is stunning and the lines sleek and beautiful.
    But look at the front? Only a mother could love a child with eyes that far apart. It looks like an alien! Butt-ugly IMO. And thats what makes the 430 worth looking at again and again.
    Kinda like the Japanese gardeners, who uses ugly light to make the flowrs look beautiful.
    The art is not only in creating beauty, but pairing beauty with "ugliness" or some kind of contrast.

    Most of Porsches designs are conservative and forseeable, but destinct.
    Porsches design is more a matter of company philosophy than a matter of taste and design.
    Porsche has opted to make the 911 silhouette their primary asset and trademark. Hence the design will always have the same base, and be interpretations of the exactly same theme.
    Built on a 50 year old design idea, that has been tweaked and adjusted ever since.
    The 928 and 550 are different. The CGT also, altho the CGT is clearly inspired by the 996 and 550 design.
    Is the CGT beautiful? The lines are awesome...and then it looks like the designers couldnt agree on making it a speedster with those classic rocketshaped thingies behind the seats, or a coupe.
    So they made some butt-ugly inbetween solution.
    But it's destinct! And its part of why the CGT is the CGT.

    The Panamera will be long, sleek and lower than most sedans, so for those reasons alone it wont blend in with the rest of the traffic.
    But the design itself is so dull and predictable, that you could easily mistake it for a mid-ninties Lexus.
    It's not great design, but it is clever marketing.



    I agree with you Dr. Phil to certain extends. Porsche design is based on the 911, isn't it? Every car they make has to have some commonality with 911, Cayenne is a clear example.

    Truly one can't argue with Porsche design philosophy because every model looks like the previous one with a different tail lights or head lights. I don't believe Porsche ever introduced a drastic design change to even leave room for discussion. They all look alike.

    At least as you said, Ferrari has had bad ones and good ones but they took the risk to go through changes.

    For example 997 MKI and MKII what's there to compare ? just a smaller fog lights or slimmer tail lights ?

    Performance wise it's a different story though but sadly in this area they're falling behind too.

    Mind you I'm not bashing Porsche I still love them but they're falling behind competition .

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    On the issue of "stunning design", whether Porsche has it or not is an interesting question. Rather than try to answer it, I will just say that of all the forty or so cars I have owned (21 Porsches since 1965) over the years, the one car that day in, day out gets the most spontaneous admiration/comments/smiles/congratulations/wows is my 1961 condor yellow Super 90 roadster. Stunning design? I don't know frankly, but I think there is much to say for simplicity, for less bling...

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    comparison1

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    2

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    3

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    #1 is porsche's own sketch
    #2 is the mule
    #3 is the best photochop sedan prototype on the net and closest to the sketch

    The mules front fender is much higher above the wheel than the sketch, the front windshield is raked too high.

    The only hope is the roof line camo starting in the middle of the second door.

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Is that the new 08 997 GT3RS prototype rolling on it's coner????;)

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    3



    That #3 photoshop version is simply drop dead gorgeous!
    WOW! I never saw that one before..
    Really beautiful.
    Practical or not, it could have been sweet had the real Panamera looked like that.

    By the way: Does anyone know what model number the Panamera will get?
    970-something?

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Speaking of Photoshop: This one should star its own TV show called "When concept visuals go horribly wrong!"

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    This is just friggin awesome
    Amazing I havent seen this before...must be getting senile..

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    This is just friggin awesome
    Amazing I havent seen this before...must be getting senile..



    Stunning ?

    Panamera looks biiiiig

    We are all just having fun speculating here, but to me we are already seeing real life practicality affecting the photoshop design. For example, can you imagine getting into, seeing out of, or being comfortable in, the back seat as noted in the artist's sketch? You would have to be plastic man, or a slim, sinuous model (hmmm..., I may have changed my mind in mid-sentence)...

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Quote:
    Wonderbar said:

    I agree that the prototype pictures look bulky, but I do not agree with anyone else on this thread that it is a stretched media prank, etc. You guys are talking to yourselves, showing your usual biases. The Panamera's problem won't be its design--it will be whether or not there are enough buyers (in a very crowded niche) that will jump to a new brand.



    Absolutely right, Wonderbar!

    Porsche in their self-delusion believes this aweful looking design is going to attract customers away from the competition? All this at a 25% premimum over the all other brand?


    Also, is this car going to have a hatch back. A four door with a hatch back? Isn't that a station wagon? WTF?

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    God, you guys just jump on any reason to complain...
    You have NO IDEEA how that thing is going to look, so far it's just a box with wheels, yet you all whine about how the big bad porsche...

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    God, you guys just jump on any reason to complain...
    You have NO IDEEA how that thing is going to look, so far it's just a box with wheels, yet you all whine about how the big bad porsche...



    A good thing then, that you contribute with a positive and constructive post. As usual.
    Look at the picture: Seems the overall shape is pretty much done.

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Of course it's all speculation since we're staring at a mule, and anyhow, I'm more worried about performance than looks. Heck, it might even be better looking than a 599GTB. If only it could be near it in terms of performance, it could then be a winner.

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    So if Porsche reads this site as has been stated by RC, don't they realize that we pretty much all think it's hideous? IMO, they should start over in the design department. I don't care how great it performs if it looks this bad.

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Of course it's all speculation since we're staring at a mule, and anyhow, I'm more worried about performance than looks. Heck, it might even be better looking than a 599GTB. If only it could be near it in terms of performance, it could then be a winner.



    Hi Al,

    I have the opposite thought of yours. Performance of a Porsche is never a concern to me.

    Look at the Cayenne Turbo. It weight over 5000 pounds but is faster than most SUV and sport sedan. At the same time, it is also fully capable off-road. I cannot think of another car company that can do it.

    The current debate about 997TT being not much faster than its competitors is not because Porsche is not capable. I think Porsche intentionally hold back the horsepower that they can put into it. They will slowly release it in the TTS and GT2 over the years.

    Re: Panamera looks biiiiig

    Does it look similar to the 989 from 1991? What I find interesting with the 989 is that it pretty much contains all design elements from the then upcoming 996, just remove the rear doors, even though this picture was taken 7 years before the 996 was introduced. Gives you some perspective on how far ahead Porsche are on the design. I would not worry about the Panamera design, it has been worked on for years and I am sure it will look great.

     
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