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    Is PASM sport EVER better?

    There are numerous reports circulating here and elsewhere that lap times are better with PASM in normal mode than sport mode including ones that suggest that Walter Rohl's N'ring lap times are shorter in normal mode and that he prefers normal to sport mode. I believe this holds true even for the GT3.

    These reports usually suggest that sport mode is best suited to perfectly smooth tracks . . . but is that true?

    Is there any evidence that sport mode is actually better than normal mode in any conditions? And if not, why doesn't Porsche just get rid of PASM and leave the cars with the normal suspension settings, ridding us of these valved shocks that make it difficult to modify our suspensions etc . . .

    Is there anybody out there who really prefers sport mode?

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Sport is supposedly better on a smooth track like Hockenheim (unlike Nurburgring, which is rough and variable).

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Porsche and other European sports cars manufacturers live in an ideal world of perfect, billiard-table, surfaces. Ideal world that is not available anywhere, including Europe, with a few exceptions, and certainly not the N-Ring. Real world suspensions need more travel and controlled compliance than they offer. PASM Normal offers a teeny bit more than Sport and that is why the chassis performs better.

    When I first drove a Vette C6 I could not believe how compliant the suspension was, coming from my 996/C4. I had to take the car to known twisty roads to convince myself that the C6 suspensions (base, Z51, MR/F55) performed. And yes they do, better than my Porsche on the same roads.

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Not intending to be provocative - just want to open up the discussion a little - then why is the 997 C2S N'ring time 8.02 for PASM Sport and 8.05 for PASM Normal then?

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    @ SB: my track experience is limited to the 987S, hence my impressions do not fully apply to your 997S, but I give it a try nonetheless.

    (1) Smooth tracks (like Spa-Francorchamps or Hockenheim): no-brainer - PASM sport mode

    (2) Nordschleife: I played around a lot (switching from Normal to Sport and back) - finally I decided that sport mode is the right set-up even on this bumpy track. Why ? The car simply feels sharper (especially on the front axle when turning into a corner) and provides more response. Though I can't tell you whether this translates into faster lap-times. With all the traffic during public days no lap is like the other and as a humble amateur I don't push it to 100% (laptimes with so-so traffic ca. 90% compared to Sportauto Supertest times )

    (3) Standard suspension (again - 987S): definitely not the best option on a track (even NoS). Last year I enjoyed some pax-laps with a 987S with standard suspension (driver way more experienced at NoS than myself) and the body roll in the fast corners was a turn-off. Afterwards he enjoyed some pax-laps in my car. Result: he sold his car and got himself a new PASM-car

    And don't forget the PASM is still an adaptive system: when it gets rough and bumpy on NoS the difference between Normal and Sport actually may be not that huge (Sport mode using the - relative - softest damping / Normal mode using the - relative - hardest damping)

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Oddly enough for extra long highway trips I prefer the firm suspension of the sport setting. At 80 mph the normal setting can be a little too soft for 1000's of miles in a row and can lead to car sickness for passengers - the normal setting kinda' wallows along if you know what I mean and at speed on the highway I want to be able to dodge obstacles. Also the sport suspension reminds me much more of all of my 80's air cooled 911s that I loved so much.
    Personally I can not wait to ditch PASM and go back to some nice coil-overs like I had on my 996.

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    I also use Sport on the highway/motorway/autobahn. Makes me think I am in a proper sports car...

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Not intending to be provocative - just want to open up the discussion a little - then why is the 997 C2S N'ring time 8.02 for PASM Sport and 8.05 for PASM Normal then?



    Source??

    I'm not sure if these numbers are real, or if you got them mixed up, but I think the intro to my post is generally true: namely that whenever sport and normal PASM modes have actually been compared (by W. Rohl, Excellence Magazine, others), on 997, GT3, and even 997 Turbo, the conclusions are always the same: normal mode is preferred and/or produces better lap times.

    The concept that sport is actually better on perfectly smooth tracks is also frequently stated, but is there any EVIDENCE of that?

    I'm hearing that a few folks prefer the sport mode for various subjective reasons, but my bet is that the VAST majority of drivers prefer normal mode, and that there is no EVIDENCE that sport is EVER better.

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    SB: the laptimes mentioned by Easy are not mixed up (first mentioned in the carmag Wheels - sorry, no link).
    WR's fast lap in the CaymanS (8:11) also was achieved with PASM in Sport mode.
    However, the Sportauto Supertest with the GT3 has been driven in Normal (same as the claimed 7:32 WR GT2 lap).
    IMO there is no scientific proof that either normal or sport is the better/faster in general (it depends on the specific model/MY and track).
    But why bother ? Unless you're a Pro getting paid to extract a miniscule faster laptime with the better (faster) set-up just find out which setting provides the better driving experience / fun for you

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:Unless you're a Pro getting paid to extract a miniscule faster laptime with the better (faster) set-up just find out which setting provides the better driving experience / fun for you


    Good Answer

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    The Sport mode only opens the exhaust flaps earlier. 2500 rpm i think.

    this gives a better flow at low rpm and a little bit more torque.

    But if you drive on a racetrack your engine speed (rpm) is much higher and then the flap is open in sports mode and in normal mode, so it makes no difference on a laptime.

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    SB: the laptimes mentioned by Easy are not mixed up (first mentioned in the carmag Wheels - sorry, no link).
    WR's fast lap in the CaymanS (8:11) also was achieved with PASM in Sport mode.
    However, the Sportauto Supertest with the GT3 has been driven in Normal (same as the claimed 7:32 WR GT2 lap).
    IMO there is no scientific proof that either normal or sport is the better/faster in general (it depends on the specific model/MY and track).
    But why bother ? Unless you're a Pro getting paid to extract a miniscule faster laptime with the better (faster) set-up just find out which setting provides the better driving experience / fun for you



    I like the answer too, but I think what I'm getting at overall is that PASM sport or normal is really a gimmick and one that MOST people don't like. It's a complicated set up and it limits our ability to lower the car and make other similar adjustments.

    Personally, I'd prefer my C2S with a non valved set up that is static in normal mode. From everything I've read, Rohl and others describe advantages to normal mode in all iterations of the 997, and there is only speculation that sport mode may be better on a perfectly smooth track . . .

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    phil993 said:
    The Sport mode only opens the exhaust flaps earlier. 2500 rpm i think.

    this gives a better flow at low rpm and a little bit more torque.

    But if you drive on a racetrack your engine speed (rpm) is much higher and then the flap is open in sports mode and in normal mode, so it makes no difference on a laptime.



    I'm talking about PASM, not PSE.

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:Personally, I'd prefer my C2S with a non valved set up that is static in normal mode. From everything I've read, Rohl and others describe advantages to normal mode in all iterations of the 997, and there is only speculation that sport mode may be better on a perfectly smooth track . . .


    There's no doubt that the best suspension for me would be the -20mm with LSD (non-PASM) that is available for no additional cost in RoW. The US-spec cars always find a way to disappoint/frustrate me...

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:Personally, I'd prefer my C2S with a non valved set up that is static in normal mode. From everything I've read, Rohl and others describe advantages to normal mode in all iterations of the 997, and there is only speculation that sport mode may be better on a perfectly smooth track . . .


    There's no doubt that the best suspension for me would be the -20mm with LSD (non-PASM) that is available for no additional cost in RoW. The US-spec cars always find a way to disappoint/frustrate me...



    You're right! Thanks for reminding me of that RoW only option. I must have blocked it out to deal with the frustration.

    What's also frustrating is that we can't get it added to our cars here aftermarket!

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:Personally, I'd prefer my C2S with a non valved set up that is static in normal mode. From everything I've read, Rohl and others describe advantages to normal mode in all iterations of the 997, and there is only speculation that sport mode may be better on a perfectly smooth track . . .


    There's no doubt that the best suspension for me would be the -20mm with LSD (non-PASM) that is available for no additional cost in RoW. The US-spec cars always find a way to disappoint/frustrate me...



    Yoou reflect my sentiments faithfully!

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:Personally, I'd prefer my C2S with a non valved set up that is static in normal mode. From everything I've read, Rohl and others describe advantages to normal mode in all iterations of the 997, and there is only speculation that sport mode may be better on a perfectly smooth track . . .


    There's no doubt that the best suspension for me would be the -20mm with LSD (non-PASM) that is available for no additional cost in RoW. The US-spec cars always find a way to disappoint/frustrate me...



    You're right! Thanks for reminding me of that RoW only option. I must have blocked it out to deal with the frustration.

    What's also frustrating is that we can't get it added to our cars here aftermarket!



    I completely sympathize with you. Now, there may be a way of fitting the factory LSD to our PASM equipped North American cars because I saw the LSD equipped transmission listed on the PET catalogue for North American cars. Why can't we select it at ordering time completely surprises me!

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    By the way, the part numbers for the LSD equipped transmission are 997.300.020.01 and 997.300.020.31. I don't know why PET shows two different transmissions with LSD but I'll call my dealer tomorrow and find out. Maybe we can get the differential by itself.

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    dont get pasm, get -20 and an LSD

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    PASM Sport suits me fine when I'm at home in Austin, there are very few roads that are rough enough to push me into Normal mode. When I'm at the office in Houston, though, I'm in PASM Normal all the time. The roads here in central Houston are absolute crap and my poor car would rattle to pieces if I had to drive around with a stiffer suspension.

    Having that flexibility is the real killer feature of PASM for me. If I was building a dedicated track toy I might be tempted to stick with a non-adaptive suspension, but for a car that spends most of its time on real roads it's great to have the choice.

    And, to be honest, I've been pretty happy with PASM out on the track as well. Whatever this generation's failings might be, I think it's definitely the way of the future. I look at it sort of like ABS was in the 80s -- still finding its legs. I think that in another decade a car without an adaptive suspension will be like a car without ABS today.

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    Nugget said:I think that in another decade a car without an adaptive suspension will be like a car without ABS today.


    You mean rare, but worth the effort to find one?

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    Nugget said:
    PASM Sport suits me fine when I'm at home in Austin, there are very few roads that are rough enough to push me into Normal mode. When I'm at the office in Houston, though, I'm in PASM Normal all the time. The roads here in central Houston are absolute crap and my poor car would rattle to pieces if I had to drive around with a stiffer suspension.

    Having that flexibility is the real killer feature of PASM for me. If I was building a dedicated track toy I might be tempted to stick with a non-adaptive suspension, but for a car that spends most of its time on real roads it's great to have the choice.

    And, to be honest, I've been pretty happy with PASM out on the track as well. Whatever this generation's failings might be, I think it's definitely the way of the future. I look at it sort of like ABS was in the 80s -- still finding its legs. I think that in another decade a car without an adaptive suspension will be like a car without ABS today.



    I could be wrong, but it seems to be my strong impression that most people don't like PASM sport and use normal all the time. In fact, I remember when the 997 first came out, how many posts there were where folks would describe how they'd get in, start up the engine, push the SPORT button (for the more aggressive throttle map etc), and then have to push the PASM button to go back into normal suspension mode.

    I think that PASM Sport just makes the car bounce or resonate over bumps in a very irritating way.

    I'm still waiting for some clear evidence that PASM Sport mode is ever better than normal.

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:I'm still waiting for some clear evidence that PASM Sport mode is ever better than normal.



    Define "better" -- it sounds to me like you're expecting evidence for a matter which is a subjective preference. I suppose I am evidence that at least one person prefers sport PASM. Shaving a few seconds off a lap around the ring puts the objective difference well into the "doesn't amount to a hill of beans if your name isn't Walter Rohrl" territory, so for us mere mortals we're left just picking the setting we prefer.

    I prefer Sport as long as the roads are in decent shape.

    Edit: and I absolutely prefer having the option of choice, and do not consider that capability to be a gimmick at all.

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    Nugget said:
    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:I'm still waiting for some clear evidence that PASM Sport mode is ever better than normal.



    Define "better" -- it sounds to me like you're expecting evidence for a matter which is a subjective preference. I suppose I am evidence that at least one person prefers sport PASM. Shaving a few seconds off a lap around the ring puts the objective difference well into the "doesn't amount to a hill of beans if your name isn't Walter Rohrl" territory, so for us mere mortals we're left just picking the setting we prefer.

    I prefer Sport as long as the roads are in decent shape.

    Edit: and I absolutely prefer having the option of choice, and do not consider that capability to be a gimmick at all.



    The choice that PASM offers you actually limits choice for others.

    With PASM, you get Porsche's 2 settings, and that's it. I seriously think that you are the exception and that most people just leave PASM in normal mode, even people like Walter Rohl . . .

    For those of us who want something more aggressive, our choices are limited by the PASM system. It is not easy to find suspension alternatives that are compatible. There are plenty of reports of premature shock failure because of aftermarket lowering springs including ones from reputable sources.

    It concerns me because even the GT3 has PASM!

    I'm glad it suits you fine, but I suspect that most people don't take "advantage" of it, and there are probably as many who like PASM if not more who wish it didn't limit their after market options.

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Well, to be fair, even drivers who leave PASM in normal mode all the time are "taking advantage" of it each time they brake hard or run a slalom or make an emergency lane change. It seems to me as if you're emotionally invested in the idea that my view is in the minority -- so in the absence of any evidence on either side of the argument that's where you are.

    My view is that even if the -20mm suspension is superior to today's PASM that PASM is absolutely the direction things are headed. You'd be better served by hoping for a PASM which you like more than wringing your hands in frustration that technology is marching forward. Your complaints remind me of the anti-ABS folks a few decades ago.

    Just as good ABS is superior to no ABS, I'm convinced that a good adaptive suspension is superior to a non-adaptive suspension While there's certainly room to disagree over where the line between "good PASM" and "poor PASM" should be drawn, it's pretty clear to me that the line is out there.

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Not intending to be provocative - just want to open up the discussion a little - then why is the 997 C2S N'ring time 8.02 for PASM Sport and 8.05 for PASM Normal then?



    Wikipedia actually has the Wheels time for the 997S as 7:59 with PASM in "Performance Mode", and no comparison time for PASM in normal mode.

    I can't find a source, but I recall seeing numerous references to better lap times with PASM in normal mode.

    Can anybody help me out here?

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=3&fID=0&tID=10073

    This link (not most reliable . . .) does suport the previous post suggesting that WR's Nring lap published in Wheels was faster with PASM in sport mode, but I gotta say that this is the first I hear about it. . .

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    My experienc is that with load in in thrunk or with bumpy road, suprisingly the sport setting is better. Helps to make the car more stable and not to bound into the surface.

    Thats why I feel the sport setting is better for the Norschleife in additon to making the car more stable and better steering respons.

    Re: Is PASM sport EVER better?

    Will write more detailed at home. Partially about customer perception, add. to the driving character an extra button gives you more "feature" for your money.

    The Gt3 is already pretty stiff to begin with, so the difference between normal & sport are less significant. The stiffer v. is suited for modern tracks incl. AutoX and is faster.

    Quote:
    cibergypsy said:
    By the way, the part numbers for the LSD equipped transmission are 997.300.020.01 and 997.300.020.31. I don't know why PET shows two different transmissions with LSD but I'll call my dealer tomorrow and find out. Maybe we can get the differential by itself.



    AWD vs. 2WD? At least, if the part numbers refer to the complete gearbox.

     
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