Crown

Board: Other Sports Cars Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    Beyond reliability and cost to replace concerns, there are two main things that I think about when pondering whether I'd like to switch to one of the newer gearboxes in a future car.

    First of all, do these things work perfectly? I mean REALLY perfectly. For instance, I remember watching a video of Top Gear's (now fifth gear's I suppose) Tiff driving an Enzo and reminding himself not to downshift until the last possible second. I'm assuming if you downshift too early it somehow upsets the car. If I really wanted to I could double clutch and heel toe into a lower gear when in that lower gear I'd be close to redline and the shift would be smooth. If an SMG won't do a perfect blip for me or electronically wouldn't allow such a "big" downshift, then it's no good to me. If you've played racing video games on manual mode where you can press a button and fly up and down through the gears, this is what I want although possibly with a small pause during shifts.

    The first part basically addresses what I call the control aspect. If you can rev match well, you have complete control over a manual transmission. If an SMG won't downshift smoothly in every situation, then you're loosing a bit of control. The other part is enjoyment. I enjoy shifting, it's challenging and rewarding. I don't go to clubs often, but put me in a car with a manual transmission and I'll dance all night. However, I think that I could be happy with a perfect SMG on a racetrack since I could concentrate more on driving. I'd still have an old manual so I don't get bored commuting. But, I may start to miss the old "dance." For those who aren't interested in SMGs, is it because you think they won't give you as much control or is it that you'd miss the satisfaction of matching your own revs?

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    SMG and other systems are entertaining the first time you use it, second time, tenth time .... but after a while you really begin to hate the system and wish for a manual...
    If I were to buy a car, I would never buy an SMG again.. the manual is just so different. I don't know why manufacturers insist on turning the whole economy to sequential manual.. The M5 / M6 weakest link (other than its butt ugly) is that it doesn't come in manual. Ferrari are trying to convert 100% to sequential but at least they are still offering manual...
    To rent a car (or testdrive) is very cool and will impress you how fast it could shift and bliping couldn't be done with manual ... but in your own car where you use it much more frequently.. I personally hate it.
    Sequential is not the future!

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    Keith - stay with the manual. Anyone who is skilled at heel-toe will enjoy a manual much more

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    Beyond reliability and cost to replace concerns, there are two main things that I think about when pondering whether I'd like to switch to one of the newer gearboxes in a future car.

    First of all, do these things work perfectly? I mean REALLY perfectly. For instance, I remember watching a video of Top Gear's (now fifth gear's I suppose) Tiff driving an Enzo and reminding himself not to downshift until the last possible second. I'm assuming if you downshift too early it somehow upsets the car. If I really wanted to I could double clutch and heel toe into a lower gear when in that lower gear I'd be close to redline and the shift would be smooth. If an SMG won't do a perfect blip for me or electronically wouldn't allow such a "big" downshift, then it's no good to me. If you've played racing video games on manual mode where you can press a button and fly up and down through the gears, this is what I want although possibly with a small pause during shifts.

    The first part basically addresses what I call the control aspect. If you can rev match well, you have complete control over a manual transmission. If an SMG won't downshift smoothly in every situation, then you're loosing a bit of control. The other part is enjoyment. I enjoy shifting, it's challenging and rewarding. I don't go to clubs often, but put me in a car with a manual transmission and I'll dance all night. However, I think that I could be happy with a perfect SMG on a racetrack since I could concentrate more on driving. I'd still have an old manual so I don't get bored commuting. But, I may start to miss the old "dance." For those who aren't interested in SMGs, is it because you think they won't give you as much control or is it that you'd miss the satisfaction of matching your own revs?



    You assumed wrong. The reason for a late shifting with F1 is because it is faster. TO brake and downshift early scrubs speed. Manual shifting requires an earlier action. BTW, rarely is a car out of balance because of a downshift using F1. The computer generated revvs are perfect and the downshift does not unbalance the car. Unbalancing the car is often more related to poor braking technique.

    I am curious, why do you H&T? For fun or for performance? If you tell me both, then what you are telling me that performance is not a priority. If that is the case, why bother with a high performance sport car? You can easily H&T in a Miata, Honda Civic, Ford Focus and have a ball at a fraction of the price.

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    Beyond reliability and cost to replace concerns, there are two main things that I think about when pondering whether I'd like to switch to one of the newer gearboxes in a future car.

    First of all, do these things work perfectly? I mean REALLY perfectly. For instance, I remember watching a video of Top Gear's (now fifth gear's I suppose) Tiff driving an Enzo and reminding himself not to downshift until the last possible second. I'm assuming if you downshift too early it somehow upsets the car. If I really wanted to I could double clutch and heel toe into a lower gear when in that lower gear I'd be close to redline and the shift would be smooth. If an SMG won't do a perfect blip for me or electronically wouldn't allow such a "big" downshift, then it's no good to me. If you've played racing video games on manual mode where you can press a button and fly up and down through the gears, this is what I want although possibly with a small pause during shifts.

    The first part basically addresses what I call the control aspect. If you can rev match well, you have complete control over a manual transmission. If an SMG won't downshift smoothly in every situation, then you're loosing a bit of control. The other part is enjoyment. I enjoy shifting, it's challenging and rewarding. I don't go to clubs often, but put me in a car with a manual transmission and I'll dance all night. However, I think that I could be happy with a perfect SMG on a racetrack since I could concentrate more on driving. I'd still have an old manual so I don't get bored commuting. But, I may start to miss the old "dance." For those who aren't interested in SMGs, is it because you think they won't give you as much control or is it that you'd miss the satisfaction of matching your own revs?



    I've had an SMG M3 as well as currently an F1 Stradale. They are excellent gearboxes and rev matching is flawless. That said, you can keep em. They bore the schit out of me after a very short period of time - especially on the street. You are correct though that you can concentrate on other things besides H&T on the track with them though. However, I'd rather be responsible for and control of everything (though I do love ABS) on the track - and especially the street. Would I likely be faster (even though I'm a fair H&Ter) in an F1 or SMG? Probably. Who cares though. I want maximum fun and adreneline. The real manual shift on the CGT is one of the things that makes it so darn fun.

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I am curious, why do you H&T? For fun or for performance? If you tell me both, then what you are telling me that performance is not a priority. If that is the case, why bother with a high performance sport car? You can easily H&T in a Miata, Honda Civic, Ford Focus and have a ball at a fraction of the price.



    Your logic is questionable. If I tell you both, how does that imply that performance isn't a priority? It only implies that while performance is probably the most important priority, there are other priorities because performance. By your logic if someone put a roll bar in their car, then they might as well own a volvo. The roll bar decreases performance by adding weight and it is in the name of safety and volvos are pretty safe. Your whole position is quite ironic. You've blasted the CGT for being too performance oriented because there are other aspects to a car of its type and in your opinion performance alone is a futile pursuit (remember the post of that lightweight that beat the CGT's ring time?) And you're the one that talks of Ferraris having passion and soul and that the experience is important. Yet anyone who wants a manual is a "dinosaur" because they might be a few tenths slower. Are there no conflicting ideas here?

    The correct deductive reasoning follows: If I answered that I HT for ONLY for fun, then yes, a civic would be fine. And if I HT only for performance than a 997 GT3 with PDK would fit the bill because it might be a few tenths quicker. However, if I do it for BOTH then a 997 GT3 with a manual would suit me nicely. BTW I'm sure a small difference in driver skill at the track would more than make up the time lost in a manual. So if PDK is a 5000 dollar option, 1000 in track time would more than make up the difference in my lap times, let alone 5k.

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    the F1 style boxes are brilliant, like ben said, the downshifts are sublime, every time, 24/7/365.

    on the street i tend to drive my M3 in automatic mode most of the time, the software is clever enough and ive gotten used to it enough to almost tell it when to shift.

    that said, if the mood takes me, its nice to know i can shift it a bit, and not in the poseur sense of a tiptronic style torque converter automatic.

    there are some cars which i could go for either PDK/SMG or 6speed (a 911 turbo for instance ), on other cars, it MUST be 6speed (GT3 )

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:

    (though I do love ABS)



    I love ABS, too! I do 1000 crunches a day!

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I am curious, why do you H&T? For fun or for performance? If you tell me both, then what you are telling me that performance is not a priority. If that is the case, why bother with a high performance sport car? You can easily H&T in a Miata, Honda Civic, Ford Focus and have a ball at a fraction of the price.



    Your logic is questionable. If I tell you both, how does that imply that performance isn't a priority? It only implies that while performance is probably the most important priority, there are other priorities because performance. By your logic if someone put a roll bar in their car, then they might as well own a volvo. The roll bar decreases performance by adding weight and it is in the name of safety and volvos are pretty safe. Your whole position is quite ironic. You've blasted the CGT for being too performance oriented because there are other aspects to a car of its type and in your opinion performance alone is a futile pursuit (remember the post of that lightweight that beat the CGT's ring time?) And you're the one that talks of Ferraris having passion and soul and that the experience is important. Yet anyone who wants a manual is a "dinosaur" because they might be a few tenths slower. Are there no conflicting ideas here?

    The correct deductive reasoning follows: If I answered that I HT for ONLY for fun, then yes, a civic would be fine. And if I HT only for performance than a 997 GT3 with PDK would fit the bill because it might be a few tenths quicker. However, if I do it for BOTH then a 997 GT3 with a manual would suit me nicely. BTW I'm sure a small difference in driver skill at the track would more than make up the time lost in a manual. So if PDK is a 5000 dollar option, 1000 in track time would more than make up the difference in my lap times, let alone 5k.



    Once again your logic is faulty. Using a roll bar is a safety issue not a performance issue.

    My point in all of this is if your buying a car to track then the logical approach would be to equip it so as to maximizes your performance. If in buying the car they told you the larger engine will give you better performance would you opt for the smaller engine? I doubt it.

    So it is with manual and F1 transmissions. Many of you think there is only a small difference in performance between F1 and manual. Well many of you would be wrong. Very few can use a manual so as to keep the margin close. After riding with Ben I know he can. Keith you may also be able to do so.

    But I would wager 98% could not even come close.

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    ... that said, if the mood takes me, its nice to know i can shift it [SMG] a bit, and not in the poseur sense of a tiptronic style torque converter automatic...



    What "poseur sense" are you attaching to a tip ?!? Poseur !?!

    FYI, the Porsche tip is one of the most sophisticated automatic trans available. The torque converter is locked after launch. I bet your 6-speed would be beaten on a track by another similar car equipped w/ tip. Poseur?

    Disclosure: I drive a 6-speed.

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    Adias, im not bashing tip drivers, there are plenty of (somewhat ) good reasons to drive a tip.

    however, shifting a tip is a bit naff since its really an automatic no matter how you look at it.

    end of the day its still a slushbox torque converter auto and not an F1 style computer operated clutch tranny.

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    Quote:
    Moogle said:end of the day its still a slushbox torque converter auto and not an F1 style computer operated clutch tranny.



    That's where you're wrong... it's not your typical slushbox. And yes, it's computer-controlled - they all are these days.

    Again - with my 6-speed driver credential - I do think there's a lot of snobbery against tiptronics. I actually think it is a bit of a macho thing to tell the world - "I'm a real driver - my car has a stick-shift..." And... I see (hear) these same guys shifting hard and melting those clutches... Oh well.

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Moogle said:end of the day its still a slushbox torque converter auto and not an F1 style computer operated clutch tranny.



    That's where you're wrong... it's not your typical slushbox. And yes, it's computer-controlled - they all are these days.

    Again - with my 6-speed driver credential - I do think there's a lot of snobbery against tiptronics. I actually think it is a bit of a macho thing to tell the world - "I'm a real driver - my car has a stick-shift..." And... I see (hear) these same guys shifting hard and melting those clutches... Oh well.



    I think the point is that there's a difference between automatics with buttons and an SMG. I'm not snobby when it comes to tips, I just don't like torque converters, it has nothing to do with being macho, but simply an engineering preference. I'd consider an SMG but never a tip simply because they work different, not because of how you operate them. I've driven tips, to me they don't feel the same. Also I could never get over that with a tip I'm giving up another 5% to driveline losses when compared to a manual or an SMG. That's 20 hp in a 400 hp car.

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    what Yargk said. no snobbery intended, but tiptronics are inferior from an engineering and performance perspective.

    i agree with you that there is alot of snobbery in the communinity, but interestingly, on the ferrari/m3 forums, there is no prejudice between the 6speed and F1/SMG owners

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    I thought this topic was already covered in the Ferrari section of the forum!

    Re: SMG/DSG/PDK gearboxes for true manual lovers, thoughts?

    Quote:
    Moogle said:...but interestingly, on the ferrari/m3 forums, there is no prejudice between the 6speed and F1/SMG owners



    Ah!... that's because many Ferrari owners lack the skill set to operate a manual

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 11/14/18 1:48 PM
    GaussM
    401844 5187
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 11/15/18 1:16 AM
    otisdog
    319681 1956
    Porsche Sticky 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) 11/14/18 11:01 AM
    reginos
    265097 2929
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 11/7/18 2:43 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    210970 1077
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 11/4/18 5:39 PM
    Topspeed
    189549 2673
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 11/15/18 1:34 AM
    996FourEss
    120340 2390
    AMG Sticky Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 9/25/18 7:06 AM
    RCA
    31762 315
    Porsche Sticky Paint protection film 9/25/18 6:14 PM
    throt
    13946 121
    Porsche Sticky Child seats in a 991 6/18/18 8:51 PM
    Monkey
    13262 31
    Porsche 991 GT3 RS 1/9/18 1:43 PM
    Kimi
    522046 5816
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 4/3/18 9:15 AM
    KresoF1
    483108 4254
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 9/13/18 10:12 AM
    RCA
    278255 2589
    Porsche Cayman GT4 11/15/18 12:37 AM
    EnglishManInNY
    262433 2598
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S 1/23/18 12:27 AM
    RCA
    191380 1074
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 11/13/18 5:52 AM
    KMM
    189035 1734
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 10/29/18 5:13 PM
    reginos
    178335 3212
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 8/31/18 10:25 AM
    WAY
    142603 757
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 11/1/18 6:13 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    141344 2234
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 1/6/18 10:41 PM
    Wonderbar
    128098 1284
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 5/22/18 9:16 PM
    RCA
    111535 789
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 5/3/18 7:52 PM
    CGX car nut
    106417 871
    Porsche Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 11/6/18 12:58 PM
    RCA
    83876 1119
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 10/13/18 9:50 PM
    RCA
    66510 672
    Porsche UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne 2/6/18 2:13 PM
    RCA
    57117 423
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Carrera GTS models 11/3/18 11:09 AM
    bluelines
    46574 477
    Others Tesla Roadster 11/14/18 12:48 PM
    lukestern
    42830 1395
    Others Tesla Model X Thread Closed 2/23/18 3:41 PM
    RCA
    42791 1122
    AMG AMG GT R 1/26/18 7:19 AM
    GoHardGT3RS
    41210 597
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo S Exclusive Series (2017) 11/14/18 11:25 AM
    RCA
    38948 637
    Lambo Aventador and SV 10/16/18 12:50 AM
    Topspeed
    38802 465
    292 items found, displaying 1 to 30.