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    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    hi guys, i see it has been a long long time since anyone has talked about plenum!

    i currently have a fvd sport exhaust and bmc filter, i am think of getting more upgrades, can anyone give me some suggestions, i am thinking of getting either an ecu upgrade or just  headers with plenum (so i can keep my warranty).

    thx Smiley


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    bigwillystyle:

    hi guys, i see it has been a long long time since anyone has talked about plenum!

    i currently have a fvd sport exhaust and bmc filter, i am think of getting more upgrades, can anyone give me some suggestions, i am thinking of getting either an ecu upgrade or just  headers with plenum (so i can keep my warranty).

    thx Smiley

    I know it sounds facetious but is a plenum really an upgrade ?
     


    --

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    bigwillystyle:

    hi guys, i see it has been a long long time since anyone has talked about plenum!

    i currently have a fvd sport exhaust and bmc filter, i am think of getting more upgrades, can anyone give me some suggestions, i am thinking of getting either an ecu upgrade or just  headers with plenum (so i can keep my warranty).

    thx Smiley


    Hi Willy, all in my humble opinions:

    Header, intake plenum, filter, air box, diverter valve, etc., are all controversial (just search for "header" on Porsche forums for example) and should be saved for later stages of modding, or maybe not at all.

    The header is probably one of the most mis-used mods, probably because it is relatively inexpensive and could be installed easily. It is an advanced level mod, definitely not for stock ECU, and people would even argue you need to do a specific ECU tune when you add header. Used wrongly, it could cause power loss in certain rpm bands.

    If you want to "play around" with the engine compartment, there are, at the basic level, 3 simple steps you should concentrate on (again IMHO) and ignore everything else that people are trying to sell Smiley:

    a. Change exhaust to a more free flow system.
    b. Tune the ECU.
    c. If you want more power, then the next thing is the Intercooler, with a re-tune of the ECU if possible. Even without a re-tune, a better intercooler would still benefit (unlike the header, for example).
     

    The following is a pretty good discussion. Go there and read about scavenging effect also; pretty cool.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold_(automotive_engineering)

    Great care must be used when selecting the length and diameter of the primary tubes. Tubes that are too large will cause the exhaust gas to expand and slow down, decreasing the scavenging effect. Tubes that are too small will create backpressure against which the engine must work to expel the exhaust gas from the chamber, reducing power and leaving exhaust in the chamber to dilute the incoming intake charge. Since engines produce more exhaust gas at higher speeds, the header(s) are tuned to a particular engine speed range according to the intended application. Typically, wide primary tubes offer the best gains in power and torque at higher engine speeds, while narrow tubes offer the best gains at lower speeds.


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    Big Will,

    Back when I did a ton of DD on the IPD plenum & decided to install it on my 997 Turbo. The plenum & tubi exhaust are the only 2 engine type mods I decided on right now, my Porsche dealer installed them for me with acknowledgment from the owner of the dealer that it wouldn't create any issues down the road, of course you can never be certain, it always depends, right. I saved quite a few  reviews, dyno's etc. that shows the plenum increases power, especially mid range torque. (I'm sure this is going to get some back lash)  It's almost easy to understand once you have the stock plenum in your hand, it's the OPPOSITE of what you would think about when you think about air flow.. The IPD plenum is a relatively inexpensive part but really quality, well machined  imho it's worth it if you're already at the dealer doing work on the car like an exhaust. Headers on the other hand can affect the airflow necessary to spin the turbo's, on some high HP cars I've seen headers can be beneficial top end but for just a plenum & exhaust it may actually hurt power as Cann remarked, especially on street use where imho you don't want to sacrifice low end power. I'd stay clear of the headers unless you have a serious tuner & you're doing it in conjunction w/ the ECU, Inter coolers, etc etc.

    I think you'll find that just about everyone agrees on doing the exhaust first (rear of the Turbo's) on the 997 Turbo,  and it should be done prior or during an ECU upgrade, the plenum is more controversial. Some people don't want to believe that any added power can be that easy or inexpensive. For the exhaust it's all about personal preference, any of the most popular ones; Cargraphic, Tubi, Fabspeed, AWE, Europipe, etc you can't go wrong. I liked the Tubi for it's distinctive sound that wasn't too loud & for it's all welded build quality, less chance for exhaust leaks & less chance for an incorrect install. Best bet if possible is for you to hear them in person, don't entirely judge by you tube clips although they're very helpful.    

    I've decided to hold off on the ECU for a while longer, till maybe my warranty is at least 50% over, ECU is one thing's that can get tricky w/ the warranty but will give you the most increase in power. Good luck with your decision/s

    I have a ton of plenum stuff if you want I can look for it, in the meantime here's some info that I have handy:

    plenum.jpgPlenumonmycar.jpgPlenum3.jpgPlenum4.jpgPlenumdyno1.jpgPlenumdyno2.jpgPlenum5.jpg997TurboPlenumDynoStock.jpgPLENUM1.jpgPLENUM2.jpg           


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    Can someone explain to be the hp and torque curve on the Mustang Dyno from Dynamic Autosports?  They are unlike anything I have seen on any other stock 997TT.   The torque drop off is far greater than I would expect.  Peak HP falls at 6300 RPM?  There is something drastically wrong with that run, and I am suspect of using that as a "baseline" for comparison.


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    My car now has close to 3K on in as I don't drive it very often. I have several cars and yet take the train to work so my TT does not get driven often. I have IPD plenum + car graphics exhaust on the car and now I am thinking about this:

    EVOMS in co-operative efforts with GIAC are proud to offer the safest, most powerful ECU tuning for your vehicle. The ECU program we offer will add up to 50HP and 85Ft/Lbs Torque. With my exhaust and plenum I should do better than this.

    FEATURES

    • More power and torque throughout the rev range
    • The most powerful and reliable ECU tuning on the market
    • Improved throttle response and reduced throttle lag
    • Undetectable by scan tools
    • Program loaded through OBDII port, no need for soldering
    • 30 Day Money Back Guarantee

    Any comments my friends?Smiley


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    Thanks for all your help guys, and Stradale for all the uploads! Still havent decided but will sure let you guys know about it!

    Cheers


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    bbywu:

    Can someone explain to be the hp and torque curve on the Mustang Dyno from Dynamic Autosports?  They are unlike anything I have seen on any other stock 997TT.   The torque drop off is far greater than I would expect.  Peak HP falls at 6300 RPM?  There is something drastically wrong with that run, and I am suspect of using that as a "baseline" for comparison.

    I thought the same thing......WTF are these guys on ?
     

    Firstly use a dyno run from a stock tt which bares zero resemblance to what a healthy stock tt should actually be producing with the power bizarrely falling off at the higher revs (which indicates something wrong with the engine or more likely they can't dyno the car properly) then actually using said incorrect dyno run to promote their plenum and state that the plenum adds 43hp to the sick tt engine !!!

    Please people run away from absolute amateurism like this Smiley


    --

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    Can someone explain: if this plenum resolves a simple design flaw - intake air hitting a straight wall as opposed to being split and directed giving a claimed increase in power, why don't Porsche fit it as standard? 


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    andrew34:

    Can someone explain: if this plenum resolves a simple design flaw - intake air hitting a straight wall as opposed to being split and directed giving a claimed increase in power, why don't Porsche fit it as standard? 

    Because Porsche engineers are not the brighest, and they don't have a massive array of R&D tools to test this sort of thing - accurately.......


    --

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    OK I dont know much about this but looking at the pics above of the "improved" plenum above it begs the question of why dont porsche manufacture the Y shaped plenums as standard instead of the current T shaped peice?  I really cant see the cost of production being the issue here and I cant see why Porsche with all their years of experience would choose to knowlingly fit a part that was clearly inferior and held back performance for no reason?

    Something smells fishy to me about this "upgrade"...

    Smiley


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    What about the dyno sheets published by europeancar in the above IPD article "PROVEN" for the Cayman showing a 6% increase in HP & Torque, do you see issues with those ?

    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    Have you ever tried picking up the 997 Turbo's stock exhaust? And why is it so restrictive? My stock F430 is 3 times as loud so why did Porsche hold back performance there? There's after-market Turbo exhausts that are quieter than my F430 & just about as quiet as a stock Turbo but don't restrict power like the OEM unit. 

    How about the weight of OEM wheels? Why don't they use better OEM brake fluid?

    Why do they make 6 speed/Cab drivers hold the convertible top button down till it fully retracts to operate it, instead of how the smart top operates, w/ a single push of the button? Do some people have 3 hands?

    There's hundred's of parts that Porsche could easily design/manufacture better. Doesn't mean you shouldn't access better parts in the after-market. If Porsche engineers made everything as best it could be made instead of having to negotiate with bean counters at the co., there wouldn't a huge after-market,,,,,,,,,,,market. 

    Wonder what would happen to airflow if the exhaust or headers were T-shaped?

    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    bigwillystyle:

    Thanks for all your help guys, and Stradale for all the uploads! Still havent decided but will sure let you guys know about it!

    Cheers

     

    You're welcome.

     

    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

     

    Have you ever tried picking up the 997 Turbo's stock exhaust? And why is it so restrictive? My stock F430 is 3 times as loud so why did Porsche hold back performance there? There's after-market Turbo exhausts that are quieter than my F430 & just about as quiet as a stock Turbo but don't restrict power like the OEM unit. 

     There is a balance to be had in increased cost of manufacture / material and noise output. The performance increase of exhausts in minimal for the sacrifice of the forementioned factors.

    How about the weight of OEM wheels? Why don't they use better OEM brake fluid? 

    both of these would add to the cost and add very little performance in real terms to a road car.

     Why do they make 6 speed/Cab drivers hold the convertible top button down till it fully retracts to operate it, instead of how the smart top operates, w/ a single push of the button? Do some people have 3 hands? 

    Sorry I dont understand the relevence of this one to the cost of manufacture / performance issue raised.

    There's hundred's of parts that Porsche could easily design/manufacture better. Doesn't mean you shouldn't access better parts in the after-market. If Porsche engineers made everything as best it could be made instead of having to negotiate with bean counters at the co., there wouldn't a huge after-market,,,,,,,,,,,market.  

    All the other upgrades you mention above would cost more to manufacture and would give minimal improvements to performance for the cost, so its logic that porsche draw the line somewhere to get a good balance of cost / performance.

     Wonder what would happen to airflow if the exhaust or headers were T-shaped?

     Well thats a fair point you are making, and on face value I can see that a T-shaped plenum would to me appear to be worse than a Y-shaped one, but then I dont know for sure and I havnt tested it as Im sure Porsche have and Id be staggered if they concluded that a T shape was so much worse on performance but saved a tangible amount of money on production.  The figures above show that this plenum appears to give up to 10% improvement in power for something that I cant see costing much more than a few pence, if anything extra to manufacture above the cost of the T shaped piece they fit? (ok I know it is aluminium -v- plastic but Im assuming here that the improved airflow through a Y-shaped plastic peice would perform just as well)

    update - ok ive just watched the video and whilst the guys and product seem genuine I'm still finding it hard to believe the power claims and that porsche have overlooked such a simple cost effective significant upgrade to be honest.

    Just a thought but the fact cars will be moving pretty fast in real life when at max power might force more air in and negate the benefits shown for a stationary vehicle?  I accept I dont know and Im no expert on this, just applying some common sense / porsche-business sense.Smiley


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    Adam2S:

     

    Have you ever tried picking up the 997 Turbo's stock exhaust? And why is it so restrictive? My stock F430 is 3 times as loud so why did Porsche hold back performance there? There's after-market Turbo exhausts that are quieter than my F430 & just about as quiet as a stock Turbo but don't restrict power like the OEM unit. 

     There is a balance to be had in increased cost of manufacture / material and noise output. The performance increase of exhausts in minimal for the sacrifice of the forementioned factors. - Porsche feels that everyone that spends $150k + & buys a 997 Turbo .2 will be happy with the same type of "minimal" gains over the 997 Turbo. 

    How about the weight of OEM wheels? Why don't they use better OEM brake fluid? 

    both of these would add to the cost and add very little performance in real terms to a road car. -  Disagree, the difference in un-sprung weight not only adds to the handling performance but is noticeable.  It's something I notice every winter & spring when I switch from my OEM's to the Champions & back.  Look at the trouble they went through to save 50lbs of non un-sprung weight w/ aluminum on the body of the 997 Turbo. For un-sprung weight Porsche will tell you it's times a factor of 7 or something like that.  

     Why do they make 6 speed/Cab drivers hold the convertible top button down till it fully retracts to operate it, instead of how the smart top operates, w/ a single push of the button? Do some people have 3 hands? 

    Sorry I dont understand the relevence of this one to the cost of manufacture / performance issue raised. - It wouldn't cost anyting extra to make the button operate on one touch like the side windows so why would they do something so stupid? It's not only annoying as heck, it's downright dangerous.  It's similar to what we're talking about, something that can be better for what appears to be little to no extra costs.

    There's hundred's of parts that Porsche could easily design/manufacture better. Doesn't mean you shouldn't access better parts in the after-market. If Porsche engineers made everything as best it could be made instead of having to negotiate with bean counters at the co., there wouldn't a huge after-market,,,,,,,,,,,market.  

    All the other upgrades you mention above would cost more to manufacture and would give minimal improvements to performance for the cost, so its logic that porsche draw the line somewhere to get a good balance of cost / performance. - It costs more to manufacture a less restrictive exhaust? If anyting it's probably the opposite.  But you're right, Porsche has to draw the line somewhere, that's what probably happened here.  Maybe the design flaw it was discovered last minute & they already ordered & paid for 10,000 T shaped plenum's from the vender, who knows.

     Wonder what would happen to airflow if the exhaust or headers were T-shaped?

     Well thats a fair point you are making, and on face value I can see that a T-shaped plenum would to me appear to be worse than a Y-shaped one, but then I dont know for sure and I havnt tested it as Im sure Porsche have and Id be staggered if they concluded that a T shape was so much worse on performance but saved a tangible amount of money on production.  The figures above show that this plenum appears to give up to 10% improvement in power for something that I cant see costing much more than a few pence, if anything extra to manufacture above the cost of the T shaped piece they fit? (ok I know it is aluminium -v- plastic but Im assuming here that the improved airflow through a Y-shaped plastic peice would perform just as well) -

    update - ok ive just watched the video and whilst the guys and product seem genuine I'm still finding it hard to believe the power claims and that porsche have overlooked such a simple cost effective significant upgrade to be honest. - Those were my first thoughts as well.  K&N makes an intake pipe & filter that adds power to 100's of car/trucks they make it for, why have all those manufactures left power, even mpg on the table? It was an interesting vid, right? Also what would european car have to gain from testing the plenum & showing the dynos gains in the above article titled "Proven" ? Notice too that the european car gains for the cayman were exactly the same as what they achieved on a different cayman in the vid.  btw: It's well known that Porsche purposely hobbles the Cayman's power as not to infringe on the 997, does that make sense if you're a Cayman owner? Maybe it's even worse than not just making a better Y shaped OEM plenum perhaps it was on purpose so that they could have the .2's incremental power gains make sense marketing wise, who knows again, fact is they have held back easy gains on purpose.    

    Just a thought but the fact cars will be moving pretty fast in real life when at max power might force more air in and negate the benefits shown for a stationary vehicle?  I accept I dont know and Im no expert on this, just applying some common sense / porsche-business sense.Smiley - Check out the air flow scan above showing what happens when air is forced in through the plenum vs the air flow stock.  There's also some vids of this on their IPD Y pipe on youtube.

     

    btw: Jason has some great pics of his install here :  http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/120328-ipd-plenum-installed.html

    See the inside of the IPD unit in his pics, the way it's shaped? Maybe it's difficult to mold plastic like that, so doing it in metal would add to costs,  who knows once more.  Smiley. Honestly don't know the answer. 

    Atomic/Jason - [update]: "It's been almost a week since I first got the IPD installed so I've managed to put a few miles in my Turbo since then. I can tell you guys that after about 50 miles, the powerband has noticably changed for the better. Previously there was a slight dip on power delivery going from a stop but that "dip" has disappeared! Although there's still a lag from a complete stop, it's not as apparent as it once was before. The plenum has definitely worked in ensuring a smoother power delivery throughout the powerband. I would give this "mod" two very enthusiastic thumbs up!"

     

    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    I installed the plenum/TB after I already had an EVOMS GT700 + ICs. My butt dyno checked out at about 625 crank hp so subjectively I cannot tell any difference after the plenum/TB. However, I can measure a difference with my Performance Box and I feel the gains are worthwhile.

    Somewhat surprizingly, I can measure improved performance at the low end and especially at the high end of the power range. The midrange is surprizingly unchanged or maybe even a touch lower than with the GT700 alone. Somewhat concerned about the midrange I contacted EVOMS about some custom tuning for the new plenum/TB. Todd Z said that no tuning was needed. The overall improvement for my car across the whole power band is roughly 4-5%. At my level that is roughly 25 hp which is a little more EVOMS claimed it would be. The TB/Plenum has only been on the car a week so the ECU may adapt and improve performance slowly. (After the GT700 kit had been on the car for three weeks the high rpm performance improved 2% without having done anything to the car and outside conditions had gotten even worse for engine power ie heat & humidity).

    Here is a P Box plot of 4th gear during 60-130 runs. The plenum speed line is red the non plenum speed line is blue. If you download the chart and look at it closely you can see the plenum is slightly but definitively superior to the setup without the plenum. (Conditions are roughly equivalent ie both hot and humid!!) As you can see the plenum reaches 130 mph 0.13s faster than the nonplenum. This only tranlates into ~2ft of difference in distance traveled by each car during the run. The third gear performance is similar but slightly less difference between the two. Most of the gain is in the upper rpms which agrees with the IPD site for modded turbos. This may not seem like much unless you are interested in bettering your 60-130 time. The plenum/TB gave me roughly 0.1s improvement in third gear and a 0.13s improvement in fourth gear thus dropping a 60-130 time by more than 2 tenths.

    So should you get this for your first mod on a stock turbo. The truth is I dont really know because I never had one one a stock turbo. But my judgement tells me this is probably not the best initial mod. I still believe a flash+DVs+/- sport exhaust is the place to start. The k-16s probably dont move enough air to benefit much from this mod, imo. I believe its is a worthwhile mod on higher hp cars to improve spool time and high rpm hp. 109-130 GT700 vs. GT700 plenum+TB.jpg


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    porschephile1:

    Here is a P Box plot of 4th gear during 60-130 runs. The plenum speed line is red the non plenum speed line is blue. If you download the chart and look at it closely you can see the plenum is slightly but definitively superior to the setup without the plenum. (Conditions are roughly equivalent ie both hot and humid!!) As you can see the plenum reaches 130 mph 0.13s faster than the nonplenum. This only tranlates into ~2ft of difference in distance traveled by each car during the run. The third gear performance is similar but slightly less difference between the two. Most of the gain is in the upper rpms which agrees with the IPD site for modded turbos. This may not seem like much unless you are interested in bettering your 60-130 time. The plenum/TB gave me roughly 0.1s improvement in third gear and a 0.13s improvement in fourth gear thus dropping a 60-130 time by more than 2 tenths.

    Excellent analysis, and real world evidence.


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    STRADALE:

    What about the dyno sheets published by europeancar in the above IPD article "PROVEN" for the Cayman showing a 6% increase in HP & Torque, do you see issues with those ?

    Stradle, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but have you ever seen a dynometer produce a graph that looks anything like this:

    21.gif

    I have never seen a dynometer produce a graph that looks like the ones printed in the magazine, which tells me that they were reproductions or art clips made from the magazine's graphics department.  I have no idea what it means.


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    TB993tt:

    60-130s vary according to loads of things (as we know ). 0.1s is too small an improvement to measure unless you really have done loads (like 20- 30  of these measurements and are 100% confident of the numbers - which you may be?

     

    I agree with you, and it is exactly my point...The plenum doesn't make any more power that is statistically significant.  It just confirms that a customer's butt becomes significantly more sensitive after spending $1000 on a product.  LOL  :)


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    Toby makes an excellent point as usual. (although his comment has disappeared on my screen)I have not done 20-30 measurements but I probably did 5-10. The pattern that was pervasive through the data was that the plenum+TB made a small but consistently measurable increase in power particularly at the high end in an already significantly modded TT. In my measurements I tried to control atmospheric conditions as best as possible. There are no shifts involved so that variable is removed.

    You can take my data either way. You can conclude that the plenum makes a small contribution or that its contribution is too small to be significant.


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    TB993tt:
    andrew34:

    Can someone explain: if this plenum resolves a simple design flaw - intake air hitting a straight wall as opposed to being split and directed giving a claimed increase in power, why don't Porsche fit it as standard? 

    Because Porsche engineers are not the brighest, and they don't have a massive array of R&D tools to test this sort of thing - accurately.......

     

    It is not a design flaw and it is the same with the engine maps (which you can improve by re-programming the ECU), the stock exhaust (which you can improve by a less restrictive exhaust), the stock suspension (which you can improve with a set of Bilstein dampers), etc.

    The engine has simply been designed to output it's power without taking every component to it's limits. This to keep production costs down, to account for every day drivability, to keep a safety margin for reliability and, not least, because the Porsche Motorsport or Exclusive divisions already provide most of these components at a premium cost. The X51 package is a good example. There you get a more optimal plenum for a huge premium.

    Alternatively, you can get a race plenum for your 911 from Porsche Motorsport which, not surprisingly, has a very similar design to the IPD plenum.

    So, not only the Porsche engineers are bright, their marketers and production mangers are bright too Smiley


    --

    987 Boxster S, Arctic Silver with 'Martini Racing' Livery, H&R Monotube Coil-Overs, H&R Anti Roll Bars, Strut Brace, FVD ECU, BMC Air Filter, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, Recaro Racing Shells, PSE.

    997 Carrera 4S, Guards Red, Bilstein PSS10 Damptronic, H&R Anti Roll Bars, IPD Plenum, Dension Gateway 500, PSE.


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    porschephile1:

    I have not done 20-30 measurements but I probably did 5-10. The pattern that was pervasive through the data was that the plenum+TB made a small but consistently measurable increase in power particularly at the high end in an already significantly modded TT. In my measurements I tried to control atmospheric conditions as best as possible. There are no shifts involved so that variable is removed.

    You can take my data either way. You can conclude that the plenum makes a small contribution or that its contribution is too small to be significant.

    Well if you have done 10 runs then I'm pretty sure you can see a difference if its there.... I know from experience once you get a decent "track" and method it is amazing how you can nail the 60-130 to be very close and without the shifts as you say makes it that much more accurate.

    0.1s is not to be sniffed at for just $1000.

    If they had made these for the GT2 I would have got RS to put one on mine and test it on the engine dyno, that would have put the issue (and possibly the company Smiley) to bed.....


    --

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    bbywu:
    TB993tt:

    60-130s vary according to loads of things (as we know ). 0.1s is too small an improvement to measure unless you really have done loads (like 20- 30  of these measurements and are 100% confident of the numbers - which you may be?

     

    I agree with you, and it is exactly my point...The plenum doesn't make any more power that is statistically significant.  It just confirms that a customer's butt becomes significantly more sensitive after spending $1000 on a product.  LOL  :)

     

    I thought it was  clear that the more mods you already have on the car the less significant the increase? That's what I was told by IPD from the beginning anyway, that the more significant the mods you already have the less significant the performance gains will be for just the plenum.  I'm actually very impressed that it still provides some additional power on a 700hp car, I honestly didn't think it would. As the european car dyno above, the Vision Dyno's, the 4 dyno's on the video's above, plus now porschephile dyno showing that even after mods worthy of 700 hp the plenum is still showing incremental gains. I'd be more willing to rec it now than before but obviously it makes the most sense on a stock or after-market exhaust Turbo

    You think "spending $1000 on a product" that shows actual performance gains when people spend $1000 on leather air vents,,,,,,,,, is silly? Toby - What do those dymags cost? $8k? They do look good though.

    PS: Porschephile - Thanks a bunch, that's so interesting & worthwhile.

    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    bbywu:
    STRADALE:

    What about the dyno sheets published by europeancar in the above IPD article "PROVEN" for the Cayman showing a 6% increase in HP & Torque, do you see issues with those ?

    Stradle, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but have you ever seen a dynometer produce a graph that looks anything like this:

    21.gif

    I have never seen a dynometer produce a graph that looks like the ones printed in the magazine, which tells me that they were reproductions or art clips made from the magazine's graphics department.  I have no idea what it means.

     

    That's what magazine almost always do for obvious reasons, it's just much easier to read that way, you can't enlarge a sheet once it's in the magazine.  Of course that's not the actual sheet. 

    It shows a 6% gain in HP & Torque. Same as in the video of the cayman at IPD test day above. Don't know why european car would purposely misrepresent the the performance of a product it's testing........ Dunno seems like such a no brainer, really inexpensive compared to most of the stuff we spend money on for our Porsche's that don't help performance one bit  & produces gains without warranty issues (shouldn't anyway) but I guess some people are against it, so they're against it & not going to allow anything to change their mind.  

    Smiley


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    STRADALE:

    You think "spending $1000 on a product" that shows actual performance gains when people spend $1000 on leather air vents,,,,,,,,, is silly? What do those dymags cost? $8k? They do look good though.

     

    --



    If you are aiming that at me. I think you misread what I said - I think $1000 IS good value if it gives you that 0.1s improvement Smiley

    I'd still like to see it on the engine dyno tho'Smiley


    --

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    bluelines:
    TB993tt:
    andrew34:

    Can someone explain: if this plenum resolves a simple design flaw - intake air hitting a straight wall as opposed to being split and directed giving a claimed increase in power, why don't Porsche fit it as standard? 

    Because Porsche engineers are not the brighest, and they don't have a massive array of R&D tools to test this sort of thing - accurately.......

     

    It is not a design flaw and it is the same with the engine maps (which you can improve by re-programming the ECU), the stock exhaust (which you can improve by a less restrictive exhaust), the stock suspension (which you can improve with a set of Bilstein dampers), etc.

    The engine has simply been designed to output it's power without taking every component to it's limits. This to keep production costs down, to account for every day drivability, to keep a safety margin for reliability and, not least, because the Porsche Motorsport or Exclusive divisions already provide most of these components at a premium cost. The X51 package is a good example. There you get a more optimal plenum for a huge premium.

    Alternatively, you can get a race plenum for your 911 from Porsche Motorsport which, not surprisingly, has a very similar design to the IPD plenum.

    So, not only the Porsche engineers are bright, their marketers and production mangers are bright too Smiley

     

    Smiley

    Could you explain the X51 part?

     


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    TB993tt:
    STRADALE:

    You think "spending $1000 on a product" that shows actual performance gains when people spend $1000 on leather air vents,,,,,,,,, is silly? What do those dymags cost? $8k? They do look good though.

     

    --



    If you are aiming that at me. I think you misread what I said - I think $1000 IS good value if it gives you that 0.1s improvement Smiley

    I'd still like to see it on the engine dyno tho'Smiley

     

    I did at first but then edited the post.  My bad.

    .1 is for porschephiles 700 3rd gear time though right? Dropping his 60-130 time by more than 2 tenths.

    Did you see the vid above with 4 different Porsche's before & after? You mean in person?

    IMO it would be great if more manufactures/distributors would offer something like this to substantiate their claims. Obviously they have confidence in the product:


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    Watched the vid.

    RSS are affiliated with Cargraphic who also sell the IPDs however RS Tuning - the only ones with a proper factory calibrated engine dyno do not seem that impressed with teh plenums for turbo application !

    I know if i had a naturally aspirated Porsche I would have one of these but the forced induction engines are a little different since the combustion chambers are already under boost pressure, can't quite see how the IPD improves on this ? better "flow" is surely not an issue on the intake side when under boost ?


    --

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: The result of IPD Plenum + Exhaust

    TB993tt:

    Watched the vid.

    RSS are affiliated with Cargraphic who also sell the IPDs however RS Tuning - the only ones with a proper factory calibrated engine dyno do not seem that impressed with teh plenums for turbo application !

    I know if i had a naturally aspirated Porsche I would have one of these but the forced induction engines are a little different since the combustion chambers are already under boost pressure, can't quite see how the IPD improves on this ? better "flow" is surely not an issue on the intake side when under boost ?

     

    Being impressed certainly won't help their business though, it's somewhat of a conflict of interests, yes?  Some might not be as interested in tuning if they were told you could get some gains without voiding their warranty.

    Well, porschephile just posted real world proof that it makes a difference on a Turbocharged car & that is even after ECU, etc mods..  The phrase that IPD used in my initial conversation was "diminishing returns".. It makes even more sense if you've just done the exhaust or on a stock Turbo. 

    imho if it was more money, say the same price as an after-market exhaust then maybe it wouldn't be worth the added benefit to some people but to pick up 2 tenths 60-130 even AFTER modding the car to 700HP, for $1k for such an easy bolt on install?  What is an after-market exhaust worth time wise for 5 times the price (considering install) ?? Look at what people spend $1k on in Porsche options, heck the sport exhaust is $2800 but offers no performance. 

    It would be so interesting to see what the difference would on a stock or even better just an after market exhaust Turbo on 1/4 or mile runs.

    Porschephile - Did I understand this correctly; this was referring to the difference of just the IPD plenum  -  "The overall improvement for my car across the whole power band is roughly 4-5%. At my level that is roughly 25 hp"


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


     
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