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    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    Crash:
    What's even more sad is the fact that roughly one in seven people in Germany are dependent on their car industry (and especially the expensive, profitable models that this same industry produces) for their income. Talk about biting the hand that feeds youSmiley

     

    Most people over here get it, this is why they voted for a conservative government.

    Unfortunately this doesn't help at all supporting SUVs. They just hate them, period.

    Interesting is the fact that there are many SMALL SUVs driving around, the BMW X3 is a bestseller and so are other SUVs from Honda, Toyota, etc. As long as they're small, things seem to be OK, even the X5 is accepted on a certain level.

    When it comes to the Audi Q7 or even the Cayenne though, things are looking completely different. This is why the new Audi Q5 is so successful too.

    I think the X5 actually profits from its non-attractive (it looks kind of "old school") look, it isn't really an eye-catcher, this is why BMW came up with the X6. For ME, this is a huge advantage because I can finally drive a 555 HP monster SUV without having to fear any stupid comments or even danger for my family.

    Porsche needs to address the public perception of the Cayenne and they may do that with all those rumors that the new Cayenne has been downsized, is environmentally "greener", etc. etc. etc. In the end, this new (possible) perception can only be carried on if this would be true. Since it actually isn't, I think Porsche needs to HEAVILY advertise their new "green" models (like Diesel, Hybrid) and SHUT UP regarding the V8 and especially the high power Turbo/Turbo S models. They also need to put some pressure on the press to avoid "publicity stunts" in the future, like a german car magazine did with the Cayenne Turbo ("dirtiest SUV on the planet"). It makes a huge difference if a car magazine reports about such a SUV in a journalistic appropriate way or if they fill this report with sarcasm, jokes and exaggerations.

    A 10 year old VW Golf is dirtier than a modern Cayenne Turbo but I haven't seen anybody keying a 10 year old VW Golf. 

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    RC:

    Porsche needs to address the public perception of the Cayenne and they may do that with all those rumors that the new Cayenne has been downsized, is environmentally "greener", etc. etc. etc. In the end, this new (possible) perception can only be carried on if this would be true. Since it actually isn't, I think Porsche needs to HEAVILY advertise their new "green" models (like Diesel, Hybrid) and SHUT UP regarding the V8 and especially the high power Turbo/Turbo S models. They also need to put some pressure on the press to avoid "publicity stunts" in the future, like a german car magazine did with the Cayenne Turbo ("dirtiest SUV on the planet"). It makes a huge difference if a car magazine reports about such a SUV in a journalistic appropriate way or if they fill this report with sarcasm, jokes and exaggerations.

     

    Sportscars (and Porsche in particular) incorporate highly emotional value. Of all those manufacturers only Porsche successfully launched and sold an SUV but this brand´s public perception has always been dominated by their efficient and comparatively small sportscars, only the Cayenne and obviously the Panamera recently fall out of this category.

    I agree that the people´s mentality has its flaws, one frequently airtravels via budget airline but complains about the neighbours´ Cayenne. I stil have to say that Porsche could´ve saved that car´s image by incorporating more significant fuelsaving features right from the beginning. I found their behaviour rather shortsighted back then and it otherwise would´ve provided a better resale value... for quite a few owners. Smiley


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    RC:

    I think the X5 actually profits from its non-attractive (it looks kind of "old school") look, it isn't really an eye-catcher, this is why BMW came up with the X6. For ME, this is a huge advantage because I can finally drive a 555 HP monster SUV without having to fear any stupid comments or even danger for my family.

    Porsche needs to address the public perception of the Cayenne ...

    A 10 year old VW Golf is dirtier than a modern Cayenne Turbo but I haven't seen anybody keying a 10 year old VW Golf. 

     

    Ironic isn't it? Once again goes to show that "Perception is Reality" Smiley

    My industry, Business Aviation, is constantly the target of misplaced criticism. As a result, the participants must forever defend themselves and their livelyhood.

    When the CEOs of the big three auto makers went to Washington last year to ask for money, they were criticized for their use of the corporate jets and failed to defend their positions. For Alan Mulally, Ford's CEO, the hearing was his third meeting of the day. The media jumped on this and we have been in damage control since.

    In spite of the obvious benefits such as time savings, productivity gains, access to remote locales, and SECURITY (real pertinent these days) offered by such a tool, we must never let our guard down. Whatever the underlying truths are, it's what appears on the front page of the local paper that seems to hold SmileySmileySmiley

    So yes, "Perception IS Reality" so Porsche, don't ignore the power of the media!


    --

    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    FFaust:

    In spite of the obvious benefits such as time savings, productivity gains, access to remote locales, and SECURITY (real pertinent these days) offered by such a tool, we must never let our guard down. Whatever the underlying truths are, it's what appears on the front page of the local paper that seems to hold SmileySmileySmiley

    So yes, "Perception IS Reality" so Porsche, don't ignore the power of the media!


    Very well said, exactly my point.  Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    RC:

    So let me see if I get this right, the Panamera would be a "better" Porsche with these specs ???:

    1. BMW 5series size

    2. 100-200 kg less weight

    3. 3 seats in the back or at least a 3 seat option

    Yep, I think this would make the Panamera more attractive.

     Christian, here are some 550 i specs. This car can be compared to Panamera S:

     

     

     

    550i

     

    Panamera S

     

    Pan S vs 550i %

    HP

     

    407

     

    400

     

    -1,8%

    Length

     

    4899 mm

     

    4970 mm

     

    +1,4%

    Width

     

    1860 mm

     

    1931

     

    +3,8%

    Height

     

    1464 mm

     

    1418

     

    -3,2%

    Quader (LxWxH)

     

    13,34 m^3

     

    13,60 m^3

     

    +2,0%

    Weight (EU)

     

    1.905 kg

     

    1.845 kg

     

    -3,2%

    List price (Germany)

     

    70.500 €

     

    94.575 €

     

    +34,1%

       

    Neither the size, nor the weight is much different from 550 i. Even the weigth is much better. But the price is the problem!

     

         


    --

    AM
    www.aldo-yachting.de


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    When my BMW "friend" visited me for the first time in a camoflaged new BMW 5 series, I thought it was the new 3 series prototype. It looked so SMALL.

    The Panamera looks huge in my opinion and I heard the same from those who attended the official presentation. I actually never looked at the sizes, which is quite interesting btw.

    I'm afraid you didn't get the Panamera S weight right, the weight (EU) is 1875 kg without ANY option. With options, weight (EU) is up to 2115 (!) kg. Considering the fact that the 550i has many options standard which the Panamera S lacks, I think the Panamera S is always slightly heavier.

    And: the Panamera S is 7 cm longer and wider than the BMW 5 series. My wife would definetely care about it.   7 cm may not be important in the US but in Germany with its small parking lots, it definetely counts.

    I agree however that another major obstacle, besides the "here-I-come" look, is the base price of the Panamera S. With even less options than the 550i. Ouch.

     

     

     

     

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

     Read the latest EVO magazine - to me the benchmark of carmagazines - and they say the two backseats of the Panamera are rubbish - a clear driver-focussed car u want to enjoy in front.....

    Again I haven't driven one yet - but I would take a BMW for day-to-day jobs anytime over a Panamera. Here is CH you see quite a few already and I agree with RC they look huge even if they might not be....Time will tell - but a few friends having all 911's are not considering this car at all...


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    Forgot to mention: Adnan, you bought a BMW, you should know how much rebate the local BMW dealer is giving. I got almost 21% on my X5 M and I heard that even up to 25% are possible if you know how to negotiate, depending on the car.

    Even if the new 5 series will probably not see these very high rebates of the X series, I bet that 12-15% on a regular basis should be possible. A perfectly well equipped 550i is probably in the 100000 EUR range. Now take away lets say 15%, you have a price tag of 85000 EUR for a fantastic "understatement" car.

    Nothing more to add...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    Gotta say that, while the U.S. certainly has its disadvantages, the benefits of purchasing a Porsche here are enormous.  My fully optioned CTTS (April 09) costs about the same in U.S. dollars that the discounted 550i RC mentions at 85,000 euro.

    And here--whether it is rational or not--SUVs and Panamera sized sedans are common and even desirable.  I have received many compliments on my car (and surely some silent resentment), but there has been no outward display of aggressive resentment or malice (yet). 

     


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

     That only happens in socialist Europe. They bought the global warming fraud hook and sinker.


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    RC:

    Forgot to mention: Adnan, you bought a BMW, you should know how much rebate the local BMW dealer is giving. I got almost 21% on my X5 M and I heard that even up to 25% are possible if you know how to negotiate, depending on the car.

    Even if the new 5 series will probably not see these very high rebates of the X series, I bet that 12-15% on a regular basis should be possible. A perfectly well equipped 550i is probably in the 100000 EUR range. Now take away lets say 15%, you have a price tag of 85000 EUR for a fantastic "understatement" car.

    Nothing more to add...

     Yes - it is all about the price! That´s what I said.

    Btw. you have taken the weight with PDK. Your X5M is even wider then Panamera, X5M 1994 mm, 63 mm even wider then Panamera!

     


    --

    AM
    www.aldo-yachting.de


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    I know, the X5 M is a pretty big SUV, even if it doesn't LOOK that way. 

    It is all about looks and perception. 

    Regarding Panamera and PDK: I doubt that somebody is that dumb to order the Panamera S with manual only. This car would be very difficult to sell.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moMwr83gtFM


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    Does somebody actually see how tiny and small this woman looks in this car ? I know she's no giant anyway but ... 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    RC, you have been trying to convince us that the Panamera is the automotive equivalent of a mammoth!

    I stood next to a Ferrari 612 Scagletti last weekend, a very rare sight here of course, and I was surprised by its size given its useless rear seats (approx. Carrera sized).

    I looked the Ferrari dimensions up and they are L-W-H 4902-1957-1344mm compared to 4970-1931-1418mm for the Panamera, a limousine for 4 persons in total comfort!  Yet, no one has ever criticized the enormous size of this 2 seater Coupe with bad space utilisation!

    Of course if compared to limousines and SUVs in its class the Panamera is the expected size.

    BTW lovely Vicky who is in the video is 5ft 5 in (1.65m) much smaller than the average northern european and north american male. There she is

    vicky.jpg

    vicky.gif1262699054533vicky.gif


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    Like I said, I know she is no giant and 1.65 m is pretty common for a woman, no offense.

    One of the reasons I and other people I know didn't choose the Panamera is it's gigantic looks. We can argue here over and over again but if my dealer tells me that the Panamera is selling slow and exactly because of the very same reasons I mentioned, there is actually no point to arguing.

    It may look different in other countries, for Germany, this is definetely the wrong car.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    RC:

    It may look different in other countries, for Germany, this is definetely the wrong car.

    The wrong car maybe because of  its "perceived" size not its actual size which is very similar to others in the class and even to GT cars like the Ferrari above and the Granturismo Maserati.

    IMO the Porsche designers failed to style it in such a way as make it look smaller and more svelte.Perhaps the late attempt to increase rear headroom (as per WW's wishes) disturbed the design balance of the car Smiley


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    RC:

    It may look different in other countries, for Germany, this is definetely the wrong car.

     

    It looks plenty different over here (small?).

    The typical police car in the USA(Ford Crown Victoria)is 5384 x 2164 x 1481 (less mirrors & light bar).


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    ... how about that : " six months waiting list in the UK "


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    Misha011:

    ... how about that : " six months waiting list in the UK "

     

    I think the UK is a different story because of the steering wheel on the wrong side. SmileySmiley

    There are 66 used Panamera available for immediate delivery in the Porsche used car locator in Germany. My dealer, he is one of the smallest, has two brandnew Panamera in stock for immediate delivery. Most dealers in Germany have at least one Turbo in stock, usually a couple of more cars. Won't even start with used Panamera.

    From a delivery time standpoint of view, Germany is Panamera paradise. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    reginos:
    RC:

    It may look different in other countries, for Germany, this is definetely the wrong car.

    The wrong car maybe because of  its "perceived" size not its actual size which is very similar to others in the class and even to GT cars like the Ferrari above and the Granturismo Maserati.

    IMO the Porsche designers failed to style it in such a way as make it look smaller and more svelte.Perhaps the late attempt to increase rear headroom (as per WW's wishes) disturbed the design balance of the car Smiley

     I tink the story about size is a cheap excuse. If the car would be 20% or 30% cheaper then it would be a totally different story. For me the Panamera is the best car - it is a sports car and  comfort car in one car.


    --

    AM
    www.aldo-yachting.de


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    I am sure your conclusions about the German market are well founded, but I wonder if the market acceptance there is demographically related to cities and small towns or areas.  When I was in Munich and Berlin last spring, I saw numerous Cayennes and two early production Panameras.  Any thoughts? 

    You mention your small dealer has several Panameras on the floor, and that again raises the comparison of the Panamera in the U.S. to Germany.  My small dealer has sold  six Panameras at least since October, and tells me the car (particularly the 4S and turbo) is quite in demand. 

    I can certainly understand the difference in markets, as I could barely drive my CTTS in southern France last year because the roads are so narrow and ill-kept.  In the U.S. the car is perfectly suitable, with the large number of SUVs and wider roads.  Also, I just hosted two young german businessmen fromthe Cologne area, and I asked them about the perception of luxury cars in Germany compared to the U.S.  They stated that when a german sees a luxury car or SUV in Germany, he resents the driver and  thinks what did the driver do to deserve such a car, while in the U.S. someone looks at such a car and thinks what can I do to get one like it.    An oversimplification for sure, but it seems to have some merit..


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    Wonderbar:

    ...when a german sees a luxury car or SUV in Germany, he resents the driver and  thinks what did the driver do to deserve such a car, while in the U.S. someone looks at such a car and thinks what can I do to get one like it.    An oversimplification for sure, but it seems to have some merit..


    Don't know about the German perspective but no reason to doubt it and that echoes what RC was saying. Americans however KNOW for sure, and from a very young age, that "everything is possible". It's not called the Land of Opportunity for nothing Smiley


    --

    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    .... but the SIZE of Panamera is NOT an issue  -  in a country that makes and domestically  sales  MB S   A8   BMW 7   VW  Phaeton ...  and all in LWB versions , too .

    1262725112979599 GTB & Panamera.JPG


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

     regarding comparisson of German and US perceptions - tough but seems a little bit truthful

    Panamera is nice in the US, Middle East, Russia, China and etc

    in Europe smaller cars are more of popularity


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    Misha011:

    .... but the SIZE of Panamera is NOT an issue  -  in a country that makes and domestically  sales  MB S   A8   BMW 7   VW  Phaeton ...  and all in LWB versions , too .

    1262725112979599 GTB & Panamera.JPG

    I wish life would be THAT easy. You need to know that Germans have some sort of love-hate relationship to their cars right now. The love to show off but they can't, so they buy an expensive car but de-badge it. Then, they actually leave the car in the garage and drive to work by bicycle or ride by bus/tram. They start to point with fingers to big SUVs and fun sportscars as useless, they brag about performance and HP figures at the table in their favorite pub among friends and when they drive their expensive and not so environmentally friendly BMW 3/5 series, Audi A4/A6, etc. etc. on the Autobahn, they get angry when small Toyotas, Nissans or Smart are driving slowly on the left lane. Smiley It may sound exaggerated but...well...
     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    Just when I finally got convinced that size didn't matter.


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    PinKchampagnE:

    Just when I finally got convinced that size didn't matter.

    Just keep on ...  we will not tell Smiley             ( and we will keep on as well )


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    size comparison - the masterpiece and the new kid on the block

     

    928 vs Panamera.jpg

     

    928 vs Panamera1.jpg


    Re: Canceled Panamera Turbo order

    Who would NOT call the Panamera HUGE now ?! 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


     
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