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    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:

     

    It's pretty easy to buy talent and technology. Money talks. If Tesla really, really wants top Porsche engineers, they could write a few multi-million dollars in check and they'll have them.

    Even in Silicon Valley this is not correct... Just look at the Uber disaster after they "bought" the engineer from Google. There are big differences between theory and reality... And it gets much, much more difficult if you are trying to poach people from German car companies and try to move their expertise and know-how to the US. Forget it. Otherwise it would have done many, many times already - but to China. They have much more money than Tesla (even with the Ponzi scheme at work)...

    China didn't buy high end car talent because they don't make high-end cars and they already force joint ventures on everyone anyway.

    You can bet they would love to build high-end cars if they had a chance to do it... It is just that then learning curve does not allow it yet.


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    No one will buy high end Chinese cars, not even chinese people. It's a brand issue, not a technology one


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Does it not count that Lotus built Tesla's first car?  Is that not simply spending money.  No Years or litigation involved. There is also Porsche design and engineering, for hire.  They design all types of stuff, I have heard, for money.  At any rate to think a soccer player is easier to buy than an engineer is a unique concept. Either way. So far I have not heard a convincing case for Tesla not being able to make a handling car. IF they think it important. They may go a whole new direction and start from scratch when it comes to cornering. That is kinda an Elon thing. Does Nissan GTR not ring a bell?  Who was playing catchup?  Where did those engineers come from?  Go back further and recall the Ford gt40 in the sixties. Ford simply threw money at it. Tesla has plenty of capital and if they choose to focus on cornering and zero to sixty they can. People just don't race around corners in street cars so why bother. The rest is just an excuse to be in denial about several key facts. ICE engines are history. Electric and autonomous transport is of course the future. Who can argue that it is not?  The end is near and now we can discuss the order of the transition and timeframes so we can maximize our stock returns. Makes sense? 


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Leawood911:

    Does it not count that Lotus built Tesla's first car?  Is that not simply spending money.  No Years or litigation involved. There is also Porsche design and engineering, for hire.  They design all types of stuff, I have heard, for money.  At any rate to think a soccer player is easier to buy than an engineer is a unique concept. Either way. So far I have not heard a convincing case for Tesla not being able to make a handling car. IF they think it important. They may go a whole new direction and start from scratch when it comes to cornering. That is kinda an Elon thing. Does Nissan GTR not ring a bell?  Who was playing catchup?  Where did those engineers come from?  Go back further and recall the Ford gt40 in the sixties. Ford simply threw money at it. Tesla has plenty of capital and if they choose to focus on cornering and zero to sixty they can. People just don't race around corners in street cars so why bother. The rest is just an excuse to be in denial about several key facts. ICE engines are history. Electric and autonomous transport is of course the future. Who can argue that it is not?  The end is near and now we can discuss the order of the transition and timeframes so we can maximize our stock returns. Makes sense? 

    Then there is another possible (more likely?) storyline, of course: There won't be much change. People will stick to the economically efficient product (i.e. combustion engines not electricity). The Tesla Ponzi scheme will burst. The company will go bankrupt (as they never made any real money) and the company's remains will be bought for little money by some Chinese company. The next 10 years will probably tell which scenario is correct Smiley


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Who knows about the future, whether Tesla will enter the Porsche performance world or not.  But for now it seems like they are moving more into the cheaper economy car world so sales volume can produce steady operating income/capital.

    The more interesting question to me is not Tesla, but how Porsche will move, and be successful, in the ELV and Formula E worlds.  


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    MKSGR:
    Leawood911:

    Does it not count that Lotus built Tesla's first car?  Is that not simply spending money.  No Years or litigation involved. There is also Porsche design and engineering, for hire.  They design all types of stuff, I have heard, for money.  At any rate to think a soccer player is easier to buy than an engineer is a unique concept. Either way. So far I have not heard a convincing case for Tesla not being able to make a handling car. IF they think it important. They may go a whole new direction and start from scratch when it comes to cornering. That is kinda an Elon thing. Does Nissan GTR not ring a bell?  Who was playing catchup?  Where did those engineers come from?  Go back further and recall the Ford gt40 in the sixties. Ford simply threw money at it. Tesla has plenty of capital and if they choose to focus on cornering and zero to sixty they can. People just don't race around corners in street cars so why bother. The rest is just an excuse to be in denial about several key facts. ICE engines are history. Electric and autonomous transport is of course the future. Who can argue that it is not?  The end is near and now we can discuss the order of the transition and timeframes so we can maximize our stock returns. Makes sense? 

    Then there is another possible (more likely?) storyline, of course: There won't be much change. People will stick to the economically efficient product (i.e. combustion engines not electricity). The Tesla Ponzi scheme will burst. The company will go bankrupt (as they never made any real money) and the company's remains will be bought for little money by some Chinese company. The next 10 years will probably tell which scenario is correct Smiley

    I'm not talking about Tesla. I'm talking about everyone. Horse much?  Not anymore, eh!  


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    noone1:

    Give me $50M and I'll hire you just about anyone from Porsche.

    Not everyone is for sale, I am an automotive engineer by education although no longer involved since the late 80s but I still know a lot of very good guys who do it for the love of it.

    As long as they make enough for a comfortable lifestyle and can work for their dream company, no money in the  World could sway them elsewhere.


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    MKSGR:
    Leawood911:

    Does it not count that Lotus built Tesla's first car?  Is that not simply spending money.  No Years or litigation involved. There is also Porsche design and engineering, for hire.  They design all types of stuff, I have heard, for money.  At any rate to think a soccer player is easier to buy than an engineer is a unique concept. Either way. So far I have not heard a convincing case for Tesla not being able to make a handling car. IF they think it important. They may go a whole new direction and start from scratch when it comes to cornering. That is kinda an Elon thing. Does Nissan GTR not ring a bell?  Who was playing catchup?  Where did those engineers come from?  Go back further and recall the Ford gt40 in the sixties. Ford simply threw money at it. Tesla has plenty of capital and if they choose to focus on cornering and zero to sixty they can. People just don't race around corners in street cars so why bother. The rest is just an excuse to be in denial about several key facts. ICE engines are history. Electric and autonomous transport is of course the future. Who can argue that it is not?  The end is near and now we can discuss the order of the transition and timeframes so we can maximize our stock returns. Makes sense? 

    Then there is another possible (more likely?) storyline, of course: There won't be much change. People will stick to the economically efficient product (i.e. combustion engines not electricity). The Tesla Ponzi scheme will burst. The company will go bankrupt (as they never made any real money) and the company's remains will be bought for little money by some Chinese company. The next 10 years will probably tell which scenario is correct Smiley

    Agree completely, you can not spend other people's money forever for one,

    second, as soon as the governments realize impossibility of replacing the current supply of fuel with electric grid, the whole idea will get vilified  as  quickly as they did recently with diesels......


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Would it not be better to start a Tesla discussion thread?


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    absent:
    noone1:

    Give me $50M and I'll hire you just about anyone from Porsche.

    Not everyone is for sale, I am an automotive engineer by education although no longer involved since the late 80s but I still know a lot of very good guys who do it for the love of it.

    As long as they make enough for a comfortable lifestyle and can work for their dream company, no money in the  World could sway them elsewhere.

    How many of them have ever actually got offers like this? Everyone says stuff like this, but we all know money talks.

    Intel, Google, Apple, and Adobe had to pay $400M due to anti-poaching agreements. There is a reason they entered an anti-poaching agreement -- it's easy to poach top talent if you can afford it. There are also reason why these things are generally illegal.


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    absent:
    MKSGR:
    Leawood911:

    Does it not count that Lotus built Tesla's first car?  Is that not simply spending money.  No Years or litigation involved. There is also Porsche design and engineering, for hire.  They design all types of stuff, I have heard, for money.  At any rate to think a soccer player is easier to buy than an engineer is a unique concept. Either way. So far I have not heard a convincing case for Tesla not being able to make a handling car. IF they think it important. They may go a whole new direction and start from scratch when it comes to cornering. That is kinda an Elon thing. Does Nissan GTR not ring a bell?  Who was playing catchup?  Where did those engineers come from?  Go back further and recall the Ford gt40 in the sixties. Ford simply threw money at it. Tesla has plenty of capital and if they choose to focus on cornering and zero to sixty they can. People just don't race around corners in street cars so why bother. The rest is just an excuse to be in denial about several key facts. ICE engines are history. Electric and autonomous transport is of course the future. Who can argue that it is not?  The end is near and now we can discuss the order of the transition and timeframes so we can maximize our stock returns. Makes sense? 

    Then there is another possible (more likely?) storyline, of course: There won't be much change. People will stick to the economically efficient product (i.e. combustion engines not electricity). The Tesla Ponzi scheme will burst. The company will go bankrupt (as they never made any real money) and the company's remains will be bought for little money by some Chinese company. The next 10 years will probably tell which scenario is correct Smiley

    second, as soon as the governments realize impossibility of replacing the current supply of fuel with electric grid, the whole idea will get vilified  as  quickly as they did recently with diesels......

    I would take the other side of that bet in a heart beat. It's too late. All manufacturers have committed to EVs. Done deal. The grid will have no choice but to change as adoption grows.


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    noone1:
    absent:
    MKSGR:
    Leawood911:

    Does it not count that Lotus built Tesla's first car?  Is that not simply spending money.  No Years or litigation involved. There is also Porsche design and engineering, for hire.  They design all types of stuff, I have heard, for money.  At any rate to think a soccer player is easier to buy than an engineer is a unique concept. Either way. So far I have not heard a convincing case for Tesla not being able to make a handling car. IF they think it important. They may go a whole new direction and start from scratch when it comes to cornering. That is kinda an Elon thing. Does Nissan GTR not ring a bell?  Who was playing catchup?  Where did those engineers come from?  Go back further and recall the Ford gt40 in the sixties. Ford simply threw money at it. Tesla has plenty of capital and if they choose to focus on cornering and zero to sixty they can. People just don't race around corners in street cars so why bother. The rest is just an excuse to be in denial about several key facts. ICE engines are history. Electric and autonomous transport is of course the future. Who can argue that it is not?  The end is near and now we can discuss the order of the transition and timeframes so we can maximize our stock returns. Makes sense? 

    Then there is another possible (more likely?) storyline, of course: There won't be much change. People will stick to the economically efficient product (i.e. combustion engines not electricity). The Tesla Ponzi scheme will burst. The company will go bankrupt (as they never made any real money) and the company's remains will be bought for little money by some Chinese company. The next 10 years will probably tell which scenario is correct Smiley

    second, as soon as the governments realize impossibility of replacing the current supply of fuel with electric grid, the whole idea will get vilified  as  quickly as they did recently with diesels......

    I would take the other side of that bet in a heart beat. It's too late. All manufacturers have committed to EVs. Done deal. The grid will have no choice but to change as adoption grows.

    People don't buy ELV... That is the key problem. The mass markets will not absorb significant numbers of ELV given the current status of battery technology/cost ratio. Politicians have no clue about complex technology. OEMs just do ELV to show some ELV to the politics - until the hype is over. Mark my words Smiley


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    They're about to absorbs millions of them. The world isn't full of people who need the cheapest car around. If you're buying even a modestly premium car, it means you can easily afford an EV.

    I will mark your words, but I think you'll be eating crow a few years from now indecision
     


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    noone1:

    They're about to absorbs millions of them. The world isn't full of people who need the cheapest car around. If you're buying even a modestly premium car, it means you can easily afford an EV.

    I will mark your words, but I think you'll be eating crow a few years from now indecision
     

    The premium segment will not have a different engine/motor concept than the vast majority of the market. Otherwise the infrastructure needed would never be created. You guys dream too much - did any of you study finance/business administration etc.? This is all simple economic logic. Starting from the horrible efficiency of the ELV concept. Moving to the enormous capital and human capital invested in combustion engine cars. Moving to the gigantic infrastructure problems in relation to ELV usage. With simple economic logic you can derive that ELV will not make it (given current technology) Smiley


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Someone better tell Audi that, otherwise they'll miss their planned 2018 launch. 

    http://fortune.com/2016/05/12/audi-plans-to-launch-a-new-electric-vehicle-model-every-year/


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    They're about to absorbs millions of them. The world isn't full of people who need the cheapest car around. If you're buying even a modestly premium car, it means you can easily afford an EV.

    I will mark your words, but I think you'll be eating crow a few years from now indecision
     

    The premium segment will not have a different engine/motor concept than the vast majority of the market. Otherwise the infrastructure needed would never be created. You guys dream too much - did any of you study finance/business administration etc.? This is all simple economic logic. Starting from the horrible efficiency of the ELV concept. Moving to the enormous capital and human capital invested in combustion engine cars. Moving to the gigantic infrastructure problems in relation to ELV usage. With simple economic logic you can derive that ELV will not make it (given current technology) Smiley

    I am certain cars seemed similarly more complex than horses. It is called progress and it is pretty easy to see all around you. While I love cars I do not deny the future. 


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    noone1:
    absent:
    noone1:

    Give me $50M and I'll hire you just about anyone from Porsche.

    How many of them have ever actually got offers like this? Everyone says stuff like this, but we all know money talks.

    I don't think anyone was offered that kind of $$ so It is hard to guess but then I don't believe any manufacturer would offer $50mln to any engineer, it is a pure speculation on your part (what if?).

    I know of 3 guys (2 working at MB and 1 at Siemens) who were approached by some Asian competitors with financial packages equal to 2.5 times their current .

    These guys are at the top of their respective teams (have a very good compensation relatively)  and refused the offers without even thinking hard about it.

    There were some other engineers with lower income who went for it though.


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    OEMs like Porsche or Mercedes have a relativ narrow vertical integration. The knowledge is spread between OEM and supplier. Opposite is KIA or Hyundai.

    You can think about 30/40 OEM and 60/70 % supplier.

    So it is not Porsche alone having some knowldege about suspension it is Porsche 40% and 60% the supplier. Sometime the development is secured for one OEM for 1,2 or 3 years but it is more usual to have the supplier develop the part/module/system and it will be offered to all OEMs with minor modifications.

    Speaking about cornering capabilities of MB S class and Porsche Panamera - > if MB would like it could be nearly the same. But MB doesn`t like it. The same applies to Tesla If they would like to have a stiffier suspension with higher cornering speeds the supplier will do the project for them.


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    AM


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Hate to generalize, but it is what it is.

    It's a cultural difference. American cars are built that way cause the North American public prefer straight line acceleration speed, corners are for turning around in drag strips. Witness the muscle cars era to now, most cars don't do well around corners but they do the drag racing thing very well, for North American, going fast in a straight line means fast to them. Their brain is wired to accept longitudinal Gs.

    For Europeans, they prefer handling around corners than outright straight line acceleration. Traditionally European sports cars are light nimble little thing that doesn't pack a lot of HP. And even if their cars ended up being heavy they will make a way for them to go around corners very fast. Simple because Europeans prefer lateral Gs. Hell, I went around my track in my 5,500+lbs Cayenne Turbo S faster than most members in their Corvettes, Mustangs and Camaros. When I get my hands on a Panamera Turbo S e-Hybrid, I am pretty sure I can knock another 5-10 seconds off that time also.

    Tesla is a American car company with American culture, so of course they prefer straight line acceleration over handling. But give them credit, with all the weight down low, they can do corners adequately, not spectacular but good enough for their target audience. 

    Tesla tried the sports car route, you all can remember the Lotus bodied Tesla Roadster. It wasn't a good seller and hence Elon dropped that and focus on straight line machine now. 

    Can Tesla try and hire some car handling specialists and make their cars handles around corners? Sure they can hire a few, but it's pointless for them, their target audience doesn't want to go around corner fast, they only care about stop light to stop light drags. Their cars are already good enough as they can do city 90 degree turns without tipping over. Case closed.

    European car makers are entering the EV market soon, and we can all agreed that the offerings, especially the Porsche Mission E, will be a vey capable car around corners for the above mentioned reasons. 

     

     


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    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    MKSGR:

    One last point: most top engineers would probably consider a job at Tesla very, very risky. It is well possible that the company will be closed down not so far in the future... Same is true for Chinese companies. Who wants to move to China as an established engineer/manager? Moving there (or to Tesla), braking ties with the network of established OEMs?  All these points show the difficulties to get know-how.

    To back up your claim, had two engineer friends graduated from tokyo and yale university ( mechanical and robotic eng.), one went to work for Tesla, the other went to china, both left jobs in a year,one moved to a Australia working on Solar the other starts working for Honda.


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    ALDO:

    OEMs like Porsche or Mercedes have a relativ narrow vertical integration. The knowledge is spread between OEM and supplier. Opposite is KIA or Hyundai.

    You can think about 30/40 OEM and 60/70 % supplier.

    So it is not Porsche alone having some knowldege about suspension it is Porsche 40% and 60% the supplier. Sometime the development is secured for one OEM for 1,2 or 3 years but it is more usual to have the supplier develop the part/module/system and it will be offered to all OEMs with minor modifications.

    Speaking about cornering capabilities of MB S class and Porsche Panamera - > if MB would like it could be nearly the same. But MB doesn`t like it. The same applies to Tesla If they would like to have a stiffier suspension with higher cornering speeds the supplier will do the project for them.

    Yes and no. Mercedes and BMW have problems keeping up with Porsche in various domains and this isn't only a band culture issue only. One of my close friends is an engineer for BMW. I could tell you stories (which unfortunately I can't because it would be a breach of trust)...but in general, Porsche has a lot of respect in the car engineering world. My friend once said "with a lower gain margin, Porsche would destroy the competition" and I think he is right. If Porsche would accept a lower margin per car, let's say half of it (which would still be pretty profitable), their cars would be amazing. I know for a fact that Porsche development is often constrained and limited by budget limitations and unfortunately Porsche doesn't seem to make much difference between a Boxster, a Cayenne or a 911 supercar.

    Porsche could easily cope with McLaren but they don't. Why? Again...gain margin. A car like the 720S from Porsche would cost the customer more than 300k EUR. Base price. Ouch. JFYI: The 720S base price (incl. VAT) is 247k EUR. This is why the cost reduction from the synergy with Lamborghini and others is needed for the "960" project. A 960 base model for a 300k EUR starting price would not be competitive.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    In the end, it is the high margin moto that steers many people away from Porsche. I am mostly a "value" person and Porsche lost me slowly but surely, the only thing that makes sense today at Porsche is the Macan but once either a real luxury exoctic rossover comes out (Urus) or a viable full EV (Tesla Y), I will be Porsche less for the first time in 20 years... Surely I cannot be the only one Porsche will have lost over the years.


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Regarding Whoopsy pointing out Notth American driving preferences. Americans have never had to deal with small cars and narrow streets. When you can go big you tend to do just that. Since Europeans were very limited by engine size and power they built smaller cars which naturally corner better. If that is what you have to work with you perfect it. In both cases it is simply maximizing your resource but it does not mean Americans don't like to go around corners fast, they simply prioritize power and speed.  Also going around corners fast is more dangerous than straight line speed. The one also looks more reckless to cops who are pretty tolerant to straight line speed.  I mean you can go pretty fast in front of a cop in a straight line. I do it all the time from a stop in the Turbo without wheel spin but under the limit +10 mph and the local cops don't care. If I raced around a street corner but within the speed limit they would arrest me. 


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    SciFrog:

    In the end, it is the high margin moto that steers many people away from Porsche. I am mostly a "value" person and Porsche lost me slowly but surely, the only thing that makes sense today at Porsche is the Macan but once either a real luxury exoctic rossover comes out (Urus) or a viable full EV (Tesla Y), I will be Porsche less for the first time in 20 years... Surely I cannot be the only one Porsche will have lost over the years.

    I agree with you. For the very first time for the past 20 years or so, the year 2018 could be the year when no Porsche will be in my garage anymore. This is really sad but I have no choice. Unfortunately, I do not have the financial freedom to spend whatever I want for a car and I need to set priorities in my family.

    I will be looking into the 960 once it is available but since the engines become pretty much "generic" (V8 Biturbo...nothing to see here Smiley), it doesn't really matter anymore if I choose a Porsche, a McLaren, a Ferrari or a Lamborghini. Most important thing will be the love for details and general performance (which McLaren wins both hands down...) and looking at the prices, comparing a fully optioned 991.2 Turbo S with a base 720S, I know for sure what my choice would be if I had to choose a fun car. 

    Still waiting for that benchmark supercar from Porsche (918 excluded): Since the time I had my 991.1 Turbo S, this "benchmark" crap is stuck in my brain and I can't get it out. I was so upset when Porsche offered a 560 hp Turbo S while Ferrari was offering the 458 successor with 670 hp. Both are priced quite close to each other in Germany. I never understood Porsche because I expected them to be ahead of the game, not at the same level or worse.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Ironically just as automotive technology made some great leaps Porsche became very very corporate. They know their market of new 911 car buyers too well. surprise  And  In a perfect world the new audi r8 would have had flat 10, a Porsche badge on it and be a hundred kilos lighter. Not knocking the new R8, it just shouldn't be a Audi.


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    JimFlat6:

    Ironically just as automotive technology made some great leaps Porsche became very very corporate. They know their market of new 911 car buyers too well. surprise  And  In a perfect world the new audi r8 would have had flat 10, a Porsche badge on it and be a hundred kilos lighter. Not knocking the new R8, it just shouldn't be a Audi.

     

    It was only an Audi simply because of Piech. He is gone now and the R8's days should be numbered. 


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    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    JimFlat6:

    Ironically just as automotive technology made some great leaps Porsche became very very corporate. They know their market of new 911 car buyers too well. surprise  And  In a perfect world the new audi r8 would have had flat 10, a Porsche badge on it and be a hundred kilos lighter. Not knocking the new R8, it just shouldn't be a Audi.

    I guess we agree here, many people seem to forget that the famous Carrera GT had a V10 engine as well, so a V10 would be a good fit for a Porsche.

    In a perfect world, Porsche would have attended to our(?) wishes a long time ago and I am pretty sure there would have been a market for a fast GT (a la BMW 6 series or Mercedes S class coupe) and of course for a mid engined super sportscar but in a perfect world, Porsche would not charge the same money for a 991.2 Turbo S Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren charge for their super sportscars, so I guess it is more important for Porsche to make money (who doesn't love making money, right?) and while they sell tons of their 911 variants, they also loose a lot of old customers in the process. Right now, I do not feel attracted by any Porsche model (any), the 918 remains a dream for me and while I like the new GT3 and certainly will love the new GT3 RS, the GT2 RS was already a disappointment (for me) and even if it seems clear that a 960 is coming (after Audi is rumored to have stopped R8 development for the next generation), it could be a little bit too late for me. If the 960 sounds like a McLaren 720S or the new Audi RS5 (which uses the Panamera 4S engine V6 Biturbo), then I friendly decline to get such a car, no matter how good it is. Also, I wonder how the 960 will be priced because the competition is strong and getting stronger.

    I get it: ELVs are the future, bla bla bla but the sportscar in my garage is supposed to a be toy, not a daily driver, so I want something emotional and by emotional I do not mean a car which constantly challenges my driving skills (a friend had the chance to drive a Koenigsegg Agera this weekend and hated the car for it's driving behavior under 100 mph...of course he loved everything else Smiley).


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    I am here in Rome doing Porsche Racing Experience.

    First couple days they were driving us in the Panamera Turbo between the track and hotel.

    Last night I asked for them to put me in the Panamera Turbo S,

    H O L Y S H I T

    I thought the Panamera Turbo with 550 HP was amazing.

    The e-Hybird Turbo S is........

    Leaving me speechless. I simply don't have any adjective to describe it.

    Perhaps explosive.

    AND that's not even considering the weight of the whole car.

    I have had experiences in Porsche race cars, in my 918 and in a 991.1 and .,2 Turbo S, but those were the only cars the offering better instantaneous acceleration G forces. Not even Teslas can match.

    That 680HP is no joke.nor the 850Nm of torque.

    Seriously, for those that think Tesla can do a better job in rolling acceleration. Bye bye Tesla. 

    Cornering is also insane. The driver is a Porsche factory instructor, seriously, I never expected a 2.5 ton car can do what it did.

    O. M. G. 

    Seriously, even with the extreme driving, we had more electric charge when we arrived back at the hotel than when we left the track, and it was 40km away.

    U N F U C K I N G B E L I E V A B L E.

    No sedans currently available is close to matching it. 

    It is that good!

    Sorry @Farmer, your diesel just became obsolete. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Sounds great, Nick. Smiley

    The first Turbo S just arrived at my dealership here in Germany. 226k EUR. Sales guy offered it to me, lease cost is insane (of course), much worse than Cayenne Turbo quote I requested. Didn't have a chance to drive one yet but I heard a lot of good things about it. Performance is similar to regular Turbo though (according to claims) but everything feels more spectacular in this car.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Whoopsy:

    I am here in Rome doing Porsche Racing Experience.

    First couple days they were driving us in the Panamera Turbo between the track and hotel.

    Last night I asked for them to put me in the Panamera Turbo S,

    H O L Y S H I T

    wow, even for 918 you didn't say like this


     
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