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    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    lev said:
    I never said Larry doesnt know how to drive manual trans. Read my post again. All what I am saying and actually Larry too that comparing to his other cars that he has currently CGT is impossible to drive. He specifically mentions Lambo in his past.

    Now look at his cars, only CGT is manual. May be CGT is not for everybody, actually it is for just 1500 most lucky folks on our planet.

    I sometimes getting tired from my daily ride too - 996TT and so once in a week I can drive CL600.



    What he didn't say though is that he put a combined 50k on his 993 turbo s, previous merci and 550 which were ALL 6 speeds. These 50k miles were combined street and track and I would venture to say ole Larry has a LOT more experience aggressively driving high performance (super)cars w/ 6 speeds than the vast majority of the CGT clutch commentors here who don't have 1 sec of seat time behind the wheel (outside a parking lot). Larry spends more time behind the wheel of super cars in a month than most here will in their entire lives. The guy loves Porsche and so badly wanted to get used to the clutch. The problem is with the car, not the vast majority of those who've driven it and come to the same conclusion.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt





    Quote:


    A testdrive being totally out of the question, i have to rely on other people's opinion on the CGT. Everybody said it's the most exciting car they've ever driven, in spite of having the tricky clutch.
    So i don't think i'd be too miserable trying to learn the damn thing



    I did not think that. No doubt it is a challenging car and a serious track car. However, it is not fun to drive particularly in daily traffic. You would have more fun in a TT.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    nberry said:




    Quote:


    A testdrive being totally out of the question, i have to rely on other people's opinion on the CGT. Everybody said it's the most exciting car they've ever driven, in spite of having the tricky clutch.
    So i don't think i'd be too miserable trying to learn the damn thing



    I did not think that. No doubt it is a challenging car and a serious track car. However, it is not fun to drive particularly in daily traffic. You would have more fun in a TT.



    Nick,

    I am suprised you didnt say some like "You would have more fun in a Spider." instead of TT. So its true tht you miss your TT...

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    i agree. if you don't do laps on the ring daily, the CGT is becoming kind of a tragic story.

    first, it is suggested to be the practical supercar. but due to the clutch, it simply isn't. it's the first porsche you'd rather look at than drive.

    second, they decided to build 1,500 units. way too much IMO to hold it's value reasonable.

    third, 0-300km/h performance really was a major disappointment in comparison to enzo and SLR (see RC's post regarding this).



    OK, I won't comment on the clutch "issue" anymore because I don't want to stirr up emotions. Only one last word: the clutch is no real issue. Can't comment on the other reasons why somebody would sell the CGT but I have a little feeling that the car is to some people a little bit too challenging and to others not bling-bling enough. But again, I stop now before I get an angry "mob" trying to kill me. Just kidding. I tried the CGT clutch and it works just fine, you just have to get used to it and it happens pretty fast. But let us put my personal experience aside. I watched Mr. Hölscher, two CGT testdrivers and Jochen Albig starting off with the CGT. None of them had any problem with the clutch. Of course they have experience with the CGT, which brings me back to my "you get used to it".

    And although Porsche states that the CGT can be used as a daily driver, this is no car for an LA traffic jam.
    I also find it funny to read that people/owners are playing around with swaybar settings. I know (and this will surely cause some angry faces now) that a great part of the CGT owners aren't able to move the CGT at the limit. I also know that a lot of CGT owners THINK they move the car at the limit but making the rear dance doesn't mean this is the limit, just as a hint. People just don't know how to drive a smooth, clean line and the traction control can't do wonders and of course it also comes on much earlier if it senses traction problems caused by driving a "bad" line.
    Maybe Porsche should sell a driving training with each CGT. But maybe owners should just understand the concept of this car which actually is a race car adapted for street driving.

    Straight line performance from 0-300 kph isn't as good as on the SLR or Ferrari Enzo? Well, when did you guys in the US drive 300 kph lately? And even in Germany, I drive with my Cayenne daily and since I own it, I didn't encounter one car to be faster. So how big would be the chance to meet a SLR or Ferrari Enzo on the Autobahn?

    And from reports about Ferrari Enzo owners using their cars on the track, I hear pretty much the same: they can't cope with the other cars because they simply can't drive them. A good car doesn't make a good driver and owning super sports cars for many years means you have experience but this doesn't mean you can really move them fast, sorry to say that. And of course a tuned 996 Turbo with 600 HP would be in the hands of a normally skilled driver probably faster on the track than a CGT in the hands of the same driver.
    This is how the world works: some are more talented and/or experienced and some are not. This might sound arrogant but I mean I can't sing for example. And I'm a lousy soccer player too. And compared to Walter Roehrl or Jochen Albig, I'm probably also a lousy driver.

    And finally: I think Porsche should have built a 959 successor, including a comfort and a club sport version.
    Add a sequential shifting, a 700 HP engine and the current CGT weight and the car would have been perfect for most drivers. But maybe Porsche listened to much to the crying hardcore Porschephiles who demanded a "real" racecar again. They got what they wanted but right now I can't hide the feeling that the same Porschephiles have been suprised or better said "shocked" by their own courage.

    And I also can't hide the feeling that some people who ordered a CGT actually wanted a Ferrari Enzo and weren't able to get one. Which leads me to my other assumption (sorry ben, I know you're one of my "assumption" victims ) that some of those who want to get rid of their CGT or CGT order actually want to get the new F430.

    But I stop now before I do too many assumptions which might not be true at all for many people.
    It wasn't my intention to offend anyone, just a simple (narrow minded?) analysis of the CGT "issues" and what I personally think about them. Nothing more and nothing less.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    RC,

    Great post. Too bad we cant rate specific posts here, this one of yours would be my top one.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Here's another CGT owner report regarding the clutch.

    http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?...mp;pagenumber=2

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    Straight line performance from 0-300 kph isn't as good as on the SLR or Ferrari Enzo? Well, when did you guys in the US drive 300 kph lately? And even in Germany, I drive with my Cayenne daily and since I own it, I didn't encounter one car to be faster. So how big would be the chance to meet a SLR or Ferrari Enzo on the Autobahn?



    well, these cars are all about emotion and the specs are feeding those emotions. even if you don't drive 300 km/h. and i personally drive around 300 km/h a lot with my GT3 and would ask myself why i can't experience the ultimate acceleration up to 300 km/h with porsche's top-of-the-line-model. HP is nearly the same as SLR's, weight is less and aerodynamics should be better. i'm not talking about the enzo here, this thing is out of this world and priced nearly twice as much.


    Quote:
    Maybe Porsche should sell a driving training with each CGT. But maybe owners should just understand the concept of this car which actually is a race car adapted for street driving.





    but then -- why doesn't porsche market it like a race car? why does it this silly targa roof? from it looks and appeal this car shouts "i'm a boulevard driver as well" IMO. and if you just read general press and don't hang around in rennteam all day, you've got the impression that the CGT is a capable daily driver.

    and i remember that some CGT developer was stated in a magazine (i don't remeber who it was though) telling that they thought about sequential gear shift or double clutch systems but couldn't get a system finished in time.

    Quote:
    And finally: I think Porsche should have built a 959 successor, including a comfort and a club sport version.
    Add a sequential shifting, a 700 HP engine and the current CGT weight and the car would have been perfect for most drivers



    agreed!!

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    i personally drive around 300 km/h a lot with my GT3 and would ask myself why i can't experience the ultimate acceleration up to 300 km/h with porsche's top-of-the-line-model. and why. HP is nearly the same as SLR's, weight is less and aerodynamics should be better.


    There was only ONE test that came with those weak numbers, and that test was on a banked oval.
    I'm waiting for more.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    J.Seven said:
    Here's another CGT owner report regarding the clutch.

    http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?...mp;pagenumber=2



    The guy cites the "let the clutch out fully before giving the car any accelerator" method to avoid stalling. Sorry, but I tried that several times and it was a MUCH bigger failure than feathering the clutch. Maybe even RC will agree that even a brain dead moron is capable of simply letting the clutch out completely before giving it gas. However, this "sure fire" way to get around the clutch problem (er: challenge) has a low % success rate - especially on inclines.

    "I think after a few weeks, it will be a non-issue". That's complete and utter speculation because he doesn't KNOW about the future.

    "Besides, once your off, it takes no time at all to regain your proper place in traffic"

    Maybe in Wisconsin, but out here in CA where there are more than 12 people on the road at a time, such activities result in $125k repair bills requiring shipping back to Germany. Further, it takes a few seconds for this to all occur (if you get lucky and it actually works) and pisses off those behind you - as if you aren't sticking out like a sore thumb already. As well, try making a left turn on a left turn yield in a somewhat busy intersection. That experience will make the TT Cayenne hesitation look SAFE!

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    RC if Porsche accepts your attitude/opinions in selling the CGT or any of its other cars I predict a meltdown for the company in a few years.

    Sell an undriveable to car to the general public and then in responding to their complaints tell them the car is too much for you ...go learn how to drive, is not exactly a winning sales formula.

    Right now the CGT is a tragic story. Buyers are bailing out and those unfortunate enought to have taken delivery are doing what they can to sell it without taking a huge loss.

    For those on this board who perceive themselves as skilled race drivers this is good news. A used CGT with low miles will within a year be selling substantially below MSRP. Go a buy one and make like Walter Roehl. But first you must rent an abandoned airfield and hope it has a flat smooth surface and no other cars on it

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Nick, RC said parking lots are also good places to drive it.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    or it could be a great internet marketing strategy by the prancing horse. Have many profess allegiance to stuttgart and then after one drive bail on the CGT claiming it sucks.
    Whether valid or not, most will never know, but it will now become true. For many perception is reality and even if the cgt isn't as bad as some claim the fact that what nick says;
    "Right now the CGT is a tragic story. Buyers are bailing out and those unfortunate enought to have taken delivery are doing what they can to sell it without taking a huge loss. " will be enough to hurt the car here. Lets face it, its a small subset of the ultra-wealthy who would entertain half a mil for any car let alone a demanding, harsh, sports car. Most in that set are aware of boards like this and what bothers them more than clutch issues is depreciation. (martha stewart syndrome).
    If PCNA are seeing what ben and nick claim they should take action. Then irony of ironies, the first 150 before the correction will appreciate 10 years from now as the only true race car for the street and ben will be twice bitten.
    Tom

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    "Suck" is a strong word for the awesome CGT (though fitting for the clutch in street applications). I certainly didn't use it and don't think Nick did either. It is a FANTASTIC car in many (most) respects.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    my word not yours but its my boiled down impression from what i've read. i like to type as little as possible to get my point across as i am a one finger typist. People don't bail from an ok supercar, ben, unless they can't afford it. it is either "sucks" or "awesome" when it comes to buying.
    Tom

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    or it could be a great internet marketing strategy by the prancing horse. Have many profess allegiance to stuttgart and then after one drive bail on the CGT claiming it sucks.
    Whether valid or not, most will never know, but it will now become true. For many perception is reality and even if the cgt isn't as bad as some claim the fact that what nick says;
    "Right now the CGT is a tragic story. Buyers are bailing out and those unfortunate enought to have taken delivery are doing what they can to sell it without taking a huge loss. " will be enough to hurt the car here. Lets face it, its a small subset of the ultra-wealthy who would entertain half a mil for any car let alone a demanding, harsh, sports car. Most in that set are aware of boards like this and what bothers them more than clutch issues is depreciation. (martha stewart syndrome).
    If PCNA are seeing what ben and nick claim they should take action. Then irony of ironies, the first 150 before the correction will appreciate 10 years from now as the only true race car for the street and ben will be twice bitten.
    Tom



    Ferrari sells every car they make and have people waiting three deep should anyone back out which is unheard of.Why would they want to conspire to make the CGT look bad? The Enzo sells for double the MSRP.

    As Ben wrote we never indicated the car "sucked". On the contrary, given the right road conditions and venue I believe it is the best performing car on the road.

    Regarding depreciation it is a function of buyer demand and over production which Porsche is notorious for. Tom, if you believe 10 years from now the original 150 CGT's are going to be in demand, wait another 6 month and buy one for less than MSRP and hold on to it. In 10 years, the car will have faded to the junk heap of past mistakes made by Porsche.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Just adding my 2 cent:

    We'll be able to judge wether the CGT is a failure or a success in 10 years if its a collector item or not.

    For example, the 2.7l RS was at some point out of favor while right now prices are going thru the roof .... and the car is tricky to drive BUT so much fun... this is a real classic

    When you buy a car (expensive or not) I hope you're not naive enough to think you'll make money out of it. Buying a car is by no mean an investment, at best if you're lucky you don't loose too much money. So it sounds pretty reasonnable to me, to me able to buy a second hand CGT with a few thousand miles on the clock below MSRP !!!!

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Ben,

    Did you talk to your Porsche dealership about the clutch or did you let any other expierenced Porsche driver drive the car and see what will happen. I dont have CGT and dont think we should continue talking about this since most of people didnt drive the car, but its so hard to me to believe that this clutch issue exist as you and Larry describe it...

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    I see plenty of CGTs in the SF South Bay taking off from red lights without any problem. The clutch needs to be learned and some do it, others do not. Heck, not every 911 driver I see operates the clutch properly - I often hear a lot of overreving on launch, when you can launch it at 700RPM if you have a controlled left foot.
    In any event, even though the CGT can be driven on the street it obviously has its limitations. Some buyers tell the factory should have told them that. I say no, they should know that - it's patently obvious. Don't bring to the mix the F-car as an alternative - heck those are auto-trannys (or semi-auto) and yes, if you do a lot of stop and go driving perhaps you should drive an auto. And... F-cars have been known to break (beyond repair) in stop and go traffic, so there you go.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    my word not yours but its my boiled down impression from what i've read. i like to type as little as possible to get my point across as i am a one finger typist. People don't bail from an ok supercar, ben, unless they can't afford it. it is either "sucks" or "awesome" when it comes to buying.
    Tom



    You been taking RC lessons re: assumptions? I had absolutely no intention of paying $500k for an "ok" car. With all the cancellations, apparently I'm not alone in my expectations of value received.

    Incidentally, why in hell is there only a suck or awesome possibility? That's some pretty small minded black and white thinking.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    "but its so hard to me to believe that this clutch issue exist as you and Larry describe it..."

    apparently - which is pretty damn strange considering: "I dont have CGT..." and probably have never even driven one. What the hell does Larry with 4 THOUSAND miles behind the wheel, me with an hour or two, or Clarkson (who put consider mileage on the car), or the dozens of journalists who drove it, or the two friends of Larry who HAVE them (one of which is selling for just this reason) know about the clutch when there are more expert people like you who've never put their ass in the car or people like RC who've "driven" it in a "parking lot".

    You guys who haven't driven the car are jokes at whom I'm laughing my ass off. Oh, I almost forgot to add the obligatory RC language "But I stop now because it isn't my intention to offend...".

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    "I see plenty of CGTs in the SF South Bay taking off from red lights without any problem."

    yes, because there are just so many of them running around.

    re: the factory telling us about the clutch: maybe they could have let those of us who took the trouble to go to Leipzig for the demo rides actually drive the car as they did all the journalists who didn't put up $50k to order one.

    i used to be in the ignorant but vocal group who used to bash nick and his incessant "clutch sucks" posts in response to magazine journalist reviews, but post driving it, i can't help but see how silly i was to be speaking so surely on something about which i was so clueless.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    ...In 10 years, the car will have faded to the junk heap of past mistakes made by Porsche.



    Nick: I know you are an attorney and not an engineer, but let me help you. Porsche is an engineering company and engineering is the art of the possible, and yes, we do make mistakes in our progress to the future. Since 1948 this company had engineering successes one after the other in spite of the heap of past mistakes you allege, but I guess you do not understand that.

    Someone who reads your statement above will have a hard time not to believe that you are on a mission to smear Porsche's name. As an attorney... more tha anyone else, shouldn't you refrain of starting a smear campaign that is completely frivolous?

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Ben,

    I hear you. You still didnt answer me if you tried to talk to P people at least in your dealership, would be interested to hear what they say.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    "I see plenty of CGTs in the SF South Bay taking off from red lights without any problem."

    yes, because there are just so many of them running around.



    If... there are so many... then that's good, right? Those many seem to have adjusted fine. I have not seen a single stall or a high-revving launch.


    Quote:
    re: the factory telling us about the clutch: maybe they could have let those of us who took the trouble to go to Leipzig for the demo rides actually drive the car as they did all the journalists who didn't put up $50k to order one.



    I agree with you there. PAG should have allowed that.

    Quote:
    i used to be in the ignorant but vocal group who used to bash nick and his incessant "clutch sucks" posts in response to magazine journalist reviews, but post driving it, i can't help but see how silly i was to be speaking so surely on something about which i was so clueless.



    That is far from fair. Many of us have been driving sticks for 30 years or more and maybe have more experience than many of the current CGT buyers. Some of us know tricky clutches. Some of us also know that they may have a hard time adapting to tricky clutches. I, for one, understand what that clutch entails and yes I would not want to drive it in traffic. That however does not mean that it is the clutch's problem. The clutch is like that because it is a racing clutch. One can drive it on the street, but it will be hard to drive in dense traffic. Anyone should know that. It IS a racing clutch. The CGT is an LM platform - bring to the street an Audi LM or a 917 and you'll have the same results.

    At the end of the day the issue is misplaced expectations. The CGT buyers who may be bailing out, clearly should never have ordered the car. They were expecting something that the car is not. Nothing wrong with the car (or those buyers) and that is what they find hard to swallow. They have to assign blame where no blame exists. Expectations are the issue.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    lev said:
    Ben,

    I hear you. You still didnt answer me if you tried to talk to P people at least in your dealership, would be interested to hear what they say.



    Larry has gone further and has been dealing directly with PAG who have NO solution or even suggestion for making the clutch any more drivable in the (large) city. So, I didn't think it would do any good for me to contact my dealer who would contact PCNA who would contact the same folks Larry has been dealing with at PAG.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    Ferrari sells every car they make and have people waiting three deep should anyone back out which is unheard of.Why would they want to conspire to make the CGT look bad? The Enzo sells for double the MSRP.

    As Ben wrote we never indicated the car "sucked". On the contrary, given the right road conditions and venue I believe it is the best performing car on the road.

    Regarding depreciation it is a function of buyer demand and over production which Porsche is notorious for. Tom, if you believe 10 years from now the original 150 CGT's are going to be in demand, wait another 6 month and buy one for less than MSRP and hold on to it. In 10 years, the car will have faded to the junk heap of past mistakes made by Porsche.



    My post was mostly done tongue in cheek nick. But you were still able to confirm my point. The cgt is the first car since the 959 to stroll into waters usually left to ferrari. I'm sure they like those waters all to themselves.

    Ferrari's great strength is marketing whereas that is one of porsche's weak points. Ferrari makes objects to posess not to use. The cgt would be such an object with its limited production of 1500 over X number of years, and its features before these stories started to appear. Because if everyone who had driven the car had come away with "its the greatest thing since sliced bread" and posted that everywhere there would be price appreciation as that would drive demand. Like it or not the internet, and in particular message boards are a strong marketing tool. These negative stories hurt and porsche has to wake up and realize this. They must make the car driveable by the clientele that it is aimed at.
    Tom

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:

    You been taking RC lessons re: assumptions? I had absolutely no intention of paying $500k for an "ok" car. With all the cancellations, apparently I'm not alone in my expectations of value received.

    Incidentally, why in hell is there only a suck or awesome possibility? That's some pretty small minded black and white thinking.



    You're taking everything too literal ben. Nothing i have posted has been an attack on you or just involving your situation. Words are tools to convey ideas. The idea is the important thing not the exact word, at least here. After you test drive a car you either buy or pass. Those are the only 2 possibilities regarding a test drive. Thats why i used the terms sucks and awesome. OK
    I said ok SUPERcar not car. I meant if it was ok for a supercar then it would be spectacular. Semantics here ben.
    I am one who believes porsche should make the car driveable in the real world. The only thing i could possibly critisize you directly for would be this comment you just made; "yes, because there are just so many of them running around."

    That sounds like that ferrari "clubby" attitude that you so despised just a short time ago.

    Tom

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:

    Ferrari sells every car they make and have people waiting three deep should anyone back out which is unheard of.Why would they want to conspire to make the CGT look bad? The Enzo sells for double the MSRP.

    As Ben wrote we never indicated the car "sucked". On the contrary, given the right road conditions and venue I believe it is the best performing car on the road.

    Regarding depreciation it is a function of buyer demand and over production which Porsche is notorious for. Tom, if you believe 10 years from now the original 150 CGT's are going to be in demand, wait another 6 month and buy one for less than MSRP and hold on to it. In 10 years, the car will have faded to the junk heap of past mistakes made by Porsche.



    These negative stories hurt and porsche has to wake up and realize this. They must make the car driveable by the clientele that it is aimed at.
    Tom



    Tom,right on! However I disagree with your point regarding Ferrari and Porsche marketing. Ferrari does not market their cars. All they need to do is produce them. Porsche markets their cars as well as any car manufacturer. How else can they sell a 40 year old design over and over again.

    What I find amazing that in the blind defense of Porsche many of you wish to ignore car enthusiast personal experience with the car. Ben is now being maligned because he had the temerity to cancel the CGT after driving it for almost two hours. Now he is accused if being not a good driver and cannot afford the car. On both points all I can do is roll on the floor laughing my ass off. Boy, did you missed the boat!

    Adias do you work for Porsche? If so, do I need to remind you of all their past mistakes including models, corporate strategy and quality issues? Think back to the late eighties and early ninties.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    ... These negative stories hurt and porsche has to wake up and realize this...


    I would be surprised if PCNA and PAG are not monitoring these boards.

    Quote:
    ...They must make the car driveable by the clientele that it is aimed at.


    I'm not sure they should do that. Perhaps they should screen CGT customers, like Ferrari does, but for the proper reasons - skill and most importantly expectations. Do not change a LM car into a GT like Enzo/SLR.

    Re: 2004 carrera gt

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:

    You been taking RC lessons re: assumptions? I had absolutely no intention of paying $500k for an "ok" car. With all the cancellations, apparently I'm not alone in my expectations of value received.

    Incidentally, why in hell is there only a suck or awesome possibility? That's some pretty small minded black and white thinking.



    You're taking everything too literal ben. Nothing i have posted has been an attack on you or just involving your situation. Words are tools to convey ideas. The idea is the important thing not the exact word, at least here. After you test drive a car you either buy or pass. Those are the only 2 possibilities regarding a test drive. Thats why i used the terms sucks and awesome. OK
    I said ok SUPERcar not car. I meant if it was ok for a supercar then it would be spectacular. Semantics here ben.
    I am one who believes porsche should make the car driveable in the real world. The only thing i could possibly critisize you directly for would be this comment you just made; "yes, because there are just so many of them running around."

    That sounds like that ferrari "clubby" attitude that you so despised just a short time ago.

    Tom



    I meant "yes, because there are just so many of them running around." to be sarcastic in that there aren't that many CGTs running around the streets in TOTAL much less SF. So, I was very much doubting the validity of someone using the "seen" driving in SF sample as indicative of anything larger than a couple of cars - at best.

    The decision re: buy or pass has been extremely difficult and emotional - for Larry, his two buddies, and myself. I STILL try to rationalize the problems as tolerable as often as multi daily and as recently as today. We all WANT very badly to be able to accept this car as it is, and try repeately (without success) to do so.

    "I said ok SUPERcar not car. I meant if it was ok for a supercar then it would be spectacular."

    This isn't some $100k 911 we're talking about here but instead a $1/2 mil supercar. Expectations are (as they should be) much higher. "Super"cars should command "super" prices, but "ok" supercars should probably command "ok" supercar prices.

     
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