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    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Piech is a brilliant but flawed personality. He always thinks big sometimes to the extend of being irrational. However, in the Porsche takeover  saga up till now Piech was pushed aside. The fact that he would have to answer to WW and Wolfgang was too much for his huge ego. He doesn't respect his cousin's abilities a lot. To his eyes, Wolfgang Porsche is one of those MBA guys who don't know much about cars. Piech is an egomaniac and megalomaniac, which sometimes is good but if carried to the extreme it's very bad and dangerous.

    However, I believe, Piech is passionate about Porsche (the cars) and if they come under VW his vision of the marque will be much different than what it's been under WW. I expect the 60s, 70s profile of Porsche brought up to date. If this man managed to create Audi from zero as a serious competitor to BMW and Mercedes and to realise the Veyron concept, I have no doubts about the future of Porsche under him.This is my hope anyway.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    ADias:
    Whoopsy:

    This is the chance for Ferdinand Piech to 'revenge' his father's fate in the hands of the Porsche family, he will not let Porsche off easy.

     

    Piech's father was the finance guy and was never let down by Ferdinand or Ferry. Louise could not say the same about him though. I do not see what Ferdinand Piech has to revenge.

    Ferdinand Piech is brilliant and has many talents but he is often prone to extreme actions and bombastic programs. Perhaps he resents his uncle removing him from director of motorsports, due to his overblown budgets, his motorsports success notwithstanding.

    maybe this fact (from topic Is Porsche buying VW or VW buying Porsche?)

    "...I actually think it's coming down to the fact that after the Second World War, when Ferdinand Porsche Sr and Ferry Porsche AND Anton Piech ( Ferdinand Piech's father) was arrested by the French as criminals of war and the French demanded half a million francs ransom each for their release, the family only bailed Ferry Porsche. Probably in his twisted mind, Ferdinand Piech thinks the Porsche family had wrong his dad by not bailing him out, now he is out to get Porsche for payback.."


    --
    Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Thank you andrea.

    Ferddie Piech may belong to the extended Porsche family, but he was never part of the Porsche family, He has never shown he supports any of the Porsche family decisions, to the point that he made sure VAG competes directly with Porsche.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    I dont get it though, they are all spawns of ferdinand porshce. One would obviously  want to bail out the patriarch or the eldest in the family in such a situation. That is why they probably bailed out ferry (saviour of the buisness). Unless of coarse, they didn't bail out Anton on purpose. Maybe Anton wasn't  fully accepted in the family and was faced with discrimination?  BUt if this was the case,  why would Piech still want to work in the family buisness?

     

     

     

    True sports car heritage Porshce's have. Much better than the life story of a entrepenuerial tracktor manufaturer. Can you Imagine a reality show or soap opera spanning over 50 years on story of Porshce and VW. hillarous!


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Their own wrond doing! They just bit a much larger piece than the one they could chew on (VW takevore)...


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    REALZEUS:

    Their own wrond doing! They just bit a much larger piece than the one they could chew on (VW takevore)...

     

    Yes, they were aiming to a business situation where they would not need a rich parent (like Fiat) to shield them from the EU performance haters... You shoot for the stars and sometimes you fail, but if you never shoot you'll always fail.

     


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    amir sarmad:

    I dont get it though, they are all spawns of ferdinand porshce. One would obviously  want to bail out the patriarch or the eldest in the family in such a situation. That is why they probably bailed out ferry (saviour of the buisness). Unless of coarse, they didn't bail out Anton on purpose. Maybe Anton wasn't  fully accepted in the family and was faced with discrimination?  BUt if this was the case,  why would Piech still want to work in the family buisness?

     

    As Anton was travelling with Porsche Sr and Ferry, he is obviously intergral part of the business and family and he wouldn't be there if he wan't fully accepted.

    Ferry was released first and he made enough money to free Sr, there was no mention of Anton but one would figured Anton was also freed together with Sr. Unless of course there wan't enough money and Anton was left in the prison for a extended period of time after Ferry bailed out Sr. If that's the case, it would make a strong argument for Ferdinand Piech to be hostile towards the Porsche family.

    Ferdinand Piech only spent about 8 years in the Porsche company, right after he got out of college, so basically it was his first job. He left the Porsche company right after the family established a policy of not allowing family members to be in a management position, I think this was a crushing blow to the youth Piech, he dream of running the Porsche company one day but this policy basically castrated his dreams. From that point onwards he never worked for the Porsche company again, working in competing firms and finally worked his way up to the top of the VAG.

    His distaste for Porsche can even be seen when he spec-ed the Veyron, it was faster than the famed Porsche 917, a extremely successful race car he created for Porsche, this way he thinks he got the last laugh for making a road car faster than Porsche's best race car.

    It was also rumored that Ferdinand Piech used his influence as a shareholder to scraped the Porsche LMP project, thus pretty much ensuring the then brand new Audi R8's maiden victory at the famed circuit and the dominance since.

    All evidences pointed to Piech trying to trip up Porsche at even chance he got, if he doesn't have any beef against the Porsche family, why bother?


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    After his release in 1946, Ferry Porsche attempted to return to Stuttgart but he was barred by the forces of occupation. In consequence, in July 1946, he brought the company to Gmünd/Carinthia, Austria.

    Together with his sister Louise (who was married to Anton Piëch), Ferry took on the management of the company. In the beginning, they also used the workshop to repair cars. Additionally, they commercialized water pumps and lathes.

    As a result of Carlo Abarth's mediation who was married to Anton Piëch's assistant, Ferry Porsche inked a contract with Piero Dusio (from Italy) to produce Grand Prix racing cars again. The new model was called the Porsche 360 Cisitalia, and it was the first to spell out the name of the family's enterprise

    In 1947, the junior Ferdinand Porsche gathered the amount of the stipulated bail, immediately after receiving the early fees for his new designs. Anton Piëch and Ferdinand Porsche were released on August 1, 1947 after a 1.0m (0.5m for each) francs bail was paid by the family.

    Anton Piëch was a lawyer and I guess an engineer is more important in an engineering/design firm than a lawyer. There is no obvious reason for Ferdinand Piëch to be resentful against Ferry Porsche his uncle

     


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     

     

    ...and here is the Cristaliacisitalia-porsche-360.jpg


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Spyderidol:

     

     

    ...and here is the Cristaliacisitalia-porsche-360.jpg

    And the Museum piece

    1243602236536cisitalia.JPG1243602386792cisitalia.JPG

     



    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    EricAlain:

    After his release in 1946, Ferry Porsche attempted to return to Stuttgart but he was barred by the forces of occupation. In consequence, in July 1946, he brought the company to Gmünd/Carinthia, Austria.

    Together with his sister Louise (who was married to Anton Piëch), Ferry took on the management of the company. In the beginning, they also used the workshop to repair cars. Additionally, they commercialized water pumps and lathes.

    As a result of Carlo Abarth's mediation who was married to Anton Piëch's assistant, Ferry Porsche inked a contract with Piero Dusio (from Italy) to produce Grand Prix racing cars again. The new model was called the Porsche 360 Cisitalia, and it was the first to spell out the name of the family's enterprise

    In 1947, the junior Ferdinand Porsche gathered the amount of the stipulated bail, immediately after receiving the early fees for his new designs. Anton Piëch and Ferdinand Porsche were released on August 1, 1947 after a 1.0m (0.5m for each) francs bail was paid by the family.

    Anton Piëch was a lawyer and I guess an engineer is more important in an engineering/design firm than a lawyer. There is no obvious reason for Ferdinand Piëch to be resentful against Ferry Porsche his uncle

     in the italian wikipedia page of Dusio is written that he helped , even by paying a high ransom money, for the release of Ferdinand Porsche, held in France as a prisoner of war.

     


    --
    Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    reginos:

    However, I believe, Piech is passionate about Porsche (the cars) and if they come under VW his vision of the marque will be much different than what it's been under WW. I expect the 60s, 70s profile of Porsche brought up to date. If this man managed to create Audi from zero as a serious competitor to BMW and Mercedes and to realise the Veyron concept, I have no doubts about the future of Porsche under him.This is my hope anyway.


    This decription sums up my feelings about Piech and Porsche very well.

    I trust him to do things I will like in the long run.


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow

    2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray

    1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    W8MM:
    reginos:

    However, I believe, Piech is passionate about Porsche (the cars) and if they come under VW his vision of the marque will be much different than what it's been under WW. I expect the 60s, 70s profile of Porsche brought up to date. If this man managed to create Audi from zero as a serious competitor to BMW and Mercedes and to realise the Veyron concept, I have no doubts about the future of Porsche under him.This is my hope anyway.


    This decription sums up my feelings about Piech and Porsche very well.

    I trust him to do things I will like in the long run.

    Here.. here..Smiley

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Interesting perspective. Piech may not, after all, be the bad guy who's trying to mess up Porsche at every opportunity. If he had been in charge of Porsche in the last few years, we may have seen less of these overpriced options that should have been standard on a sports car in the first place (PASM, Sport Chrono, etc.), less retro styling, and more focus on serious innovation and cutting edge design. Perhaps even a Cayman that is not artificially held back, both in performance and styling.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    KMM:

    Interesting perspective. Piech may not, after all, be the bad guy who's trying to mess up Porsche at every opportunity. If he had been in charge of Porsche in the last few years, we may have seen less of these overpriced options that should have been standard on a sports car in the first place (PASM, Sport Chrono, etc.), less retro styling, and more focus on serious innovation and cutting edge design. Perhaps even a Cayman that is not artificially held back, both in performance and styling.

     

    I do not believe that at all. Have you looked at Audi's options lists?

    Mike may be correct that FP might steer PAG in a good direction, but I am not sure. FP is known to be a maverick for his own objectives. He only feeds his ego and PAG is not necessarily a vehicle for that. After leaving PAG under some stress from his uncle Ferry he went on his own to prove himself to the Porsches. He did that and built Audi to what it is today. He developed  Audi's motorsports to stick it to Porsche. He is not going to downgrade Audi to favor Porsche, I don't think.

    WW is not as bad as most of us think. He has not emphasized sport full throttle, but the road cars under his watch have improved in quality and performance.

     

     


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     Well this whole story makes me very sad. My job is to carry out investment reviews for clients in industry and the financial sector and I am amazed that there was no proper investment review carried out for this series of transactions. Although the instruments are arcane, the clear risk was that the VW law would not be repealed and that Porsche would not be able to call on the cash pile held by VW. So they needed a plan B... and it looks very much to me like they didn't/don't have a plan B.

    In fairness, the recession has kicked in really hard undermining their ability to service their debts, but this was on the horizon with Bear Sterns and then Northern Rock, so the stress tests for this deal either to have been done or not properly thought through. I guess all the above explains why independent investment reviews seem to be back in fashion again.

    What I don't understand is the lack of rights for Porsche in VW given I understand it has control of 75 percent of VW. I would have thought that would enable them to direct strategy to a large extent, including appointing a majority of board members etc etc. I am clearly missing something here.

    With regard to the Porsche / VW 'merger', It's all very unclear what is happening right now - I am wondering if FP is waiting for Porsche to go insolvent and pick up the business for nothing? Or is WW desperately trying to find a retrospective plan B involving sovereign wealth funds and hold off FP taking over?


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     

    WW based his strategy on a series of wrong assumptions. In fact he underestimated the impact of all relevant parameters:

    1. VW Law would easily be repealed, Niedersachsen would become harmless and they would be free to put their hand in the VW coffers.
    2. VW management would back him up.
    3. VW Workers Union and the strong Herr Osterloh would not put up any fight.
    4. The period of supersales, superprofits and masses of cash for Porsche would go on forever. Even if the world crisis couldn't be predicted, no company can grow at their assumed rates forever.

    IMO notwithstanding his resurrection of Porsche in the 90s, WW and his financial wizard Holger Haerter have a lot to answer for and pay the price for their "casino management tactics".

    I believe VW wait for Porsche to get to the edge and pick it up for nothing. I would do the same if I were them. Why would they bail Porsche out using their cash reserves, being themselves in the same volatile industry.

    In the meantime WW is trying to found arab investors to buy a share and thus reduce the debt. I doubt if with the on-going bad publicity anyone would dare to come near.

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Interesting isn't it, how few CEOs and CFOs had a plan B?  Highly educated and experienced executives believing that the party would never end is really astonishing. While F. Piech may wish to take "revenge" on Wiedeking, I do not believe he would so the same w/ Porsche should the company come under his control.  Please correct me if I'm in error, but wasn't F. Piech the man who developed the first 911R in the late '60s, and wasn't this done at his direction somewhat off the books? If Porsche became his company I believe he would honor the legacy and spirit he has known at Porsche in earlier years.  


    --
    Carpe Diem

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     

     

    ...there was no Audi in the "early years".

    At least no HUGE motorsport Audi program.

    Porsche will play second fiddle.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Spyderidol:

     

     

    ...there was no Audi in the "early years".

    At least no HUGE motorsport Audi program.

    Porsche will play second fiddle.

    I can understand your fears but VW/Piech cannot be totally irrational. Porsche is a huge world brand and they are not stupid to have it wasted if/when they acquire it.

    In Motorsport there is place for everybody. ALMS, LMS, VLN, FIA-GT, Grand-AM, 24H races, DTM, WTCC, return to WRC etc could all be divided amongst the brands and dominated accordingly. Porsche now that they have a saloon could even participate in DTM or WTCC which opens new possibilities.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     

     

    That's'"second fiddle"!

    Porsche only place is in Sportscar racing, not DTM, rally , WTCC. These are all second to Le Mans.

     


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Spyderidol:

     

     

    That's'"second fiddle"!

    Porsche only place is in Sportscar racing, not DTM, rally , WTCC. These are all second to Le Mans.

     

    They could win LM in turns. The rest could be additional activities. Infinite possibilities


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Porsche op. profit seen at 700-800 mln eur -paper

    Fri May 29, 2009 12:41pm EDT
     

     
     

     

    FRANKFURT, May 29 (Reuters) - Porsche (PSHG_p.DE) will sell around 80,000 cars in the current fiscal year and expects to post a full-year operating profit of between 700 million euros ($979.5 million) and 800 million, a state politician told a German newspaper.

     

    Claus Schmiedel, a member of parliament in Porsche's home state Baden-Wuerttemberg, told Stuttgarter Nachrichten in an interview to be published on Saturday he had spoken to Porsche's finance chief and taken a look at the carmaker's books.

     

    "On an operating level Porsche does not have a problem -- unlike other producers," Schmiedel said, adding the company will achieve an operating margin of 12 percent.

     

    In the following year Porsche aims to sell more than 100,000 cars and again make a profit of more than 1 billion euros, Schmiedel said.

     

    Porsche, whose fiscal year ends July 31, declined to comment.

     

    Porsche confirmed on Monday it got a 700 million euro loan from its Volkswagen AG (VOWG.DE) unit but insisted it could cope with its debt woes. [ID:nL0107196]

     

    Labouring under a 9 billion euro load of debt it had accumulated by the end of January, Porsche was forced to abandon a complete takeover of the Wolfsburg-based carmaker. (Reporting by Nicola Leske; Editing by David Holmes)


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times


    Porsche SE: Integrated car manufacturing group will profit all Reaction to the Resolution of the European Group Works Council at Volkswagen AG


    Stuttgart. The European Group Works Council of Volkswagen AG, Wolfsburg, has adopted a Resolution, demanding top priority for the liquidity situation in the Volkswagen group and a detailing of the situation at Porsche.

    In a letter to the VW Group Works Council the Board of Management of Porsche Automobil Holding SE has reacted to this by stating:

    "We understand the concern of the European Group Works Council of VW in the light of a number of press reports without a basis in recent weeks. As a matter of course the forming of an integrated car manufacturing group implies the mutual assessment of both companies involved by accounting firms. The results have to be checked and approved by the boards of both companies - Board of Management as well as Supervisory Board.

    We are convinced that the targeted integrated car manufacturing group is the best industrial solution for all stakeholders involved. That is the case for the companies as well as for the respective workforce. Thus we do not want to put anybody under time pressure.

    The employees of Porsche without any doubt are backing the Management of Porsche SE as they have shown and demonstrated in several works meetings. The Porsche Group Works Council has in its latest meeting on Friday May 29 unanimously confirmed this. Porsche as a company has an equity ratio of
    45 percent and - in the face of the actual economic crisis - still achieves double digit operating margins even if due to the ongoing tensions in the capital markets as well as in the credit markets the closing of a credit line of Euro
    12.5 billion - of which more than Euro ten billion are already secured - is delayed. We do work on this.

    The Board of Management at Porsche SE knows its responsibility for the VW group and the VW employees. We will meet this responsibility.

    Let us now jointly carve this route to the benefit of all stakeholders."

    K-GO

    6/1/2009


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     The Emir of Qatar ready to help.

    "Wendy Wiedeking can go easier on the Klonopin. If the sources of the German magazineFocus aren’t mistaken, Porsche’s CEO has found someone who can help him out of his financial predicament: His Highness Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani. The Emir of Qatar gave Wiedeking his royal word that he will shake loose several billions on Porsche’s behalf. Or rather the Sheikh’s sovereign wealth fund Qatar Investment Authority (QIA) will fork over the money. Focus says they have a handshake, but no signed paper because two options are on the table: the Sheikh buys shares of Porsche . . . or Volkswagen."


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     

     


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Until money changes hands nothing is finished!

    Just hope the Emir is a Porsche driver and motorsport fan Smiley


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    What makes this quite interesting and scary is that Porsche funded its VW purchases by "writing puts" - meaning that they are obligated to buy (potentially) $ billions in VW shares at what would seem given current economic realities to be grossly inflated valuations.  Up to now, because Porsche was able to push VW ord shares literally into the stratosphere through their squeeze-play on the stock (there is very little freely-floating VW stock left), those written puts are deeply out of the money, meaning that there is a contingent liability but relative to the stock price it is a log ways off.  HOWEVER - if for some reason Porsche can't keep the VW shares floating miles above reality because, for example, they have to sell some VW stock to fund near term working capital or debt obligations, a VW share collapse to E100 per share or E75 per share could cause immense quantities of stock to be put to Porsche.  (For those without a stock terminal VW's ordinary shares trade for E228 per share whereas the non-voting preferred VW shares, which are not suject to Porsche's squeeze play, trade for E48 per share; normally they trade relatively close to each other. ) Looking at the VW float non-owned by Porsche (22%) the current market cap of that is E5 bn.  Probably the puts are stuck much lower, so perhaps the cost to execute would be E2-3 bn but these are big numbers for a company already stretched very far.   Specifcs are very thin but basically Porsche is hideously overextended however you slice it.  Unlike GM / Chrysler, Porsche generates a good amount of cash flow from operations because the products are highly desireable but this only gets you so far if debt is 8 times cash flow with another 3-5 years of cash flow worth of contingencies ready to fall on top of you. 

      It's sad that this is even being discussed in this forum but it is a pretty big deal for Porsche drivers if Porsche becomes a division of VW, which is where this looks like it is heading.  I am in the financial industry and just based on experience I have just not seen many situations where a company becomes so overextended due to sheer arrogance such as this, and yet things turn out well. 


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     

     

    100% in agreement! Very sad indeed.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    bigonion:

    What makes this quite interesting and scary is that Porsche funded its VW purchases by "writing puts"....

      It's sad that this is even being discussed in this forum but it is a pretty big deal for Porsche drivers if Porsche becomes a division of VW, which is where this looks like it is heading.  I am in the financial industry and just based on experience I have just not seen many situations where a company becomes so overextended due to sheer arrogance such as this, and yet things turn out well. 

     

    Very well stated.


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


     
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