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    Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Just a thought my daily driver is a MK V Golf GTi with DSG and I took delivery of my c2s in March 07.

    In my appraisal DSG/PDK feels way too unconnected. Engineering brilliance but lacking in feel.

    Of course Porsche may well improve on the VW effort, but I would say that the potential benefits may come at a price.

    Possibly, not motoring nirvana?

    Whats the thoughts of others on this forum.

    Just curious to other peoples opinions on this.

    I have to asy that driving myh c2s on the a roads in hertfordshire is something else and the roads / car just make a great combo.

    The car makes you want to seek out and explore better roads and I wonder if the loack of involvement from a double clutch would lessen the experiance.

    Answers on a postcard....

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Hi Paul, I also have a GTI with DSG. I absolutely love the DSG I have heard comments similar to yours, but feel it is perfect. The best part for me is on quick back roads- never having my hands leave the steering wheel, never pressing in a clutch pedal.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Quote:
    Paul_London said:Whats the thoughts of others on this forum?


    I like a manual much more for a sportscar. DSG is fine for a city car...

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    I really don't like DSG. Here are my thoughts from another post I made on a different forum. I'm a manual fan, believing with absolute certainty that floppy shifters rob the driver of one of several important driver/car connections. I was challenged with the proposition that floppy shifters are the way of future just as ABS was and is today. I'm all for technical advances, but not ones that deprive me of living.

    Real sex with a beautiful woman or masturbate watching a porn star on DVD?

    "Completely flawed comparison.

    ABS doesn't detract from the driving experience b/c it's not intrusive in modern cars and for the most part you try to avoid relying on it. Sort of like the current generation of PSM. That is, ABS and PSM and TC etc irritate the purists b/c they can't stand the thought of 'driving a computer.' However, in practice, these systems are largely transparent, and when they do engage, they are a welcome intervention especially for novice and intermediate drivers.

    OTOH, an F1/DSG/PDK tranny is never in the background, its effects only to be felt under certain circumstances. Rather, they change the entire personality of the car, and are always in the forefront.

    Still further, ABS and threshold braking are not at odds with each other. Rather, the concept of threshold braking is still alive and well, as proper track driving still takes advantage of threshold braking. The same cannot be said of heel toeing and PDK.

    Let's face it, you only have limited contact with the car. What you hear, what you see, and what you feel through the seat, through the wheel, through the pedals, and yes, through the gearshift and your left leg. Removal of the gearshift and left pedal removes valuable inputs.

    As said many times before, for most an automanual will be faster on track, but for many, NOT more fun. And, the end of the day, we all drive for fun since we aren't making a living in the DE Grand Prix.

    But to each his own. If you live in a world of video game insomnia, crave technology, are a shumi wannabe, or have diminishing motors skills and cannot be bothered with the 'chore' of a manual, the choice is clear. Clearly, the numbers speak for themselves in the Ferrari world for example, where 75% of their f430s have been neutered."
    ------------------

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Or you can skip my entire post and watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on-IRTFam4I&eurl

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    I certainly respect everyone's views- But every time I respond to one of these DSG threads, it seems like everyone says how much it sucks.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Well at least I would say the PDK/DSG will be far superior to the yucky tiptronic slush box...

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    i'll be happy to see it in 911's and will want to test it..it's fun but in a different way although if i only had one car it would have to be manual

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Frayed,

    OTOH, an F1/DSG/PDK tranny is never in the background, its effects only to be felt under certain circumstances. Rather, they change the entire personality of the car, and are always in the forefront.

    --> this is exactly my problem With PASM too... it's always present and changes the personality of the car...

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Get with the program:

    A DSG- SMG- PDK-equipped car is _faster_.

    Up and down shifts are perfectly rev-matched!!!!!

    Not suffering the imbalance of the car and your body by shoving around a thirty pound leg and foot while slinging your arm around and paying attention to the tach frees up alot more mental energy for paying attention to other things the car is doing.

    Shifting in a "billionth" of a second in the middle of a curve with "zero" upset is a sublime experience.

    Saying "I feel more connected to the car with a manual" is basically saying "I'm habitually in love with 19th century technology."


    Do NOT confuse performance driving with what is obviously on the opposite end of the spectrum of experience: you can just ignore everything and relax as if you've got an automatic tranny.

    Repeat: no more rowing thru gears means that mental energy can be applied elsewhere to sensing and reacting to the car's performance.


    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Quote:
    MMD said:... Saying "I feel more connected to the car with a manual" is basically saying "I'm habitually in love with 19th century technology."

    Do NOT confuse performance driving with what is obviously on the opposite end of the spectrum of experience: you can just ignore everything and relax as if you've got an automatic tranny.

    Repeat: no more rowing thru gears means that mental energy can be applied elsewhere to sensing and reacting to the car's performance.




    This is true. There's a lot of basic emotion and macho posturing when saying that a stick/clutch is more rewarding, etc. Also people lie when they say a tipS shifts slower than they do, or... at the very least... if they ram gears and slam clutches in tenths of a second their hardware will not last long.

    I have always been a manual clutch/stick driver and do it well. I think though that time is now to move on to more capable transmissions, and as MMD says release physical/mental energy to concentrate on better (smoother) driving.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    loe, despite what I've said in other posts, I'm NOT a huge PASM fan. Rather, blaming it for causing the end of mankind is silly. PASM haters have legitimate beefs with the setup but also have not so legitmate or validated beefs with it too..

    MMD and ADias, DSGish trannys are w/o question technically superior. I've seen nobody argue that point. It does not mean they are more fun, however. If you do think they are more fun and take joy in perfectly computer controlled rev matched down shifts 'in the middle of a corner', then you should buy Porsche's upcoming version. It's very much a personal decision and has nothing to do with feeling 'macho'.

    I don't earn my living on a race track, and do it purely for fun. Ultimate laptimes are secondary to the experience.

    Let's look at it this way. I grew up hunting. You can, on the one hand, bait an area for months, sit in a stand at the baited area, and when the season opens immediately bring down a couple of bucks aided with a high power rifle and a good scope. Voila, you've bagged your season limit the first weekend out. You have trophy heads and a freezer full of meat.

    Or, participate in bow season, or muzzleloader season and struggle. Maybe not get anything. What's more rewarding? To many the sport is the entire experience including perfecting your craft with a bow or muzzleloader. Not as efficient but far more rewarding (to some).

    Everyone has to draw their own line on how much they want technology to do the work for them. Some draw it at the point of 3 pedals, others do not.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    the attraction in PDK etc to me is just in the shift control location to keep your hands on the steering which is more enjoyable on the track where shifting is the least important element..i do not take pleasure from a controller doing it which is usually not as smooth as a good driver can do

    i think the best system would be a manual sequential with paddle shifters..like a cup car sequentail but with paddles so you still control the heel-toe and clucth but have your hands on the steering and shift deep in the corner

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Quote:
    frayed said:I don't earn my living on a race track, and do it purely for fun. Ultimate laptimes are secondary to the experience.


    Well said

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    It's interesting. Manual shifting is one of the very few cases of auto technology where there has been a serious number of serious people rejecting an advance that makes driving the car both easier and more efficient. Think of all of the things which were initially rejected by enthusiasts:

    Power Steering (reduced feel)
    Power Brakes (reduced feel)
    Air Conditioning (weight, power robbing, reliability)
    ABS (obtrusive; I can brake better by pulsing myself)
    PASM
    PSM
    Automatic Transmissions
    Tail Fins
    Vinyl Roofs

    We should probably also include electic starters ('real men turn the crank'), manual chokes, etc.

    My Lex RX400H and my wife's E500 don't actually let you start the car; you blip the starter key and they take care of everything else - no point in pressing and feathering the throttle. The Lexus won't even let you gun the engine; sit with it in Drive with your foot on the break, floor the throttle and ... nothing!

    It seems that at some point the science and engineering of the transmission will advance to the point where the notion of self-shifting will seem ludicrous.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Quote:
    Scotty A said:
    It's interesting. Manual shifting is one of the very few cases of auto technology where there has been a serious number of serious people rejecting an advance that makes driving the car both easier and more efficient. Think of all of the things which were initially rejected by enthusiasts:

    Power Steering (reduced feel)
    Power Breaks (reduced feel)
    Air Conditioning (weight, power robbing, reliability)
    ABS (obtrusive; I can brake better by pulsing myself)
    PASM
    PSM
    Automatic Transmissions
    Tail Fins
    Vinyl Roofs


    My 73RS has none of those things and it is by far the best driving car I have ever owned (or driven). It is not a great car in spite of not having all those things, I think it is largely great because of their absence...

    I have owned other cars with all the things on your list (excluding PASM, but including tail fins) and nothing drives like my old outdated car

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    My 73RS has none of those things and it is by far the best driving car I have ever owned (or driven). It is not a great car in spite of not having all those things, I think it is largely great because of their absence...

    I have owned other cars with all the things on your list (excluding PASM, but including tail fins) and nothing drives like my old outdated car



    I completely respect your opinion, but my point is that you just don't see much debate about any of these features on modern cars. They are mostly accepted as improvements over the older manual processes. Except of course for tail fins and vinyl roofs, which seem to have come back on the BMW 645.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    frayed said:I don't earn my living on a race track, and do it purely for fun. Ultimate laptimes are secondary to the experience.


    Well said



    Could it not also be said that going faster with smoother shifts is more fun?

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Quote:
    Scotty A said:I completely respect your opinion, but my point is that you just don't see much debate about any of these features on modern cars. They are mostly accepted as improvements over the older manual processes. Except of course for tail fins and vinyl roofs, which seem to have come back on the BMW 645.


    I respect your opinion too, but I think there is still legitimate debate about many of those items when it comes to focused sportscars - even the brand new Lotus Elise/Exige dispenses with many of them and many feel the car drives much better for it...

    Sure, maybe one day the manual gearbox will be thought of in the same terms as vinyl roofs and tail fins are considered today, but I hope not

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    MMD, well said. As for more of my personal experience with DSG- I think there is plenty of "feel", but a different one than with a manual. When the DSG shifts, downshifts, etc., the sensation is of a supremely tuned piece of technology, it kind of makes you giggle.


    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Why do you want to pay more to add more weight and also make it more unreliable?

    None of them work quickly backing up on a level and you can forget backing up a steep driveway or parallel parking on a hill. I don't see race cars needing to do that too often.

    And how durable are they in a high torque performance engine? Gonna get 50,000 - 80,000 no problem miles with
    one hooked onto a 400hp engine? Good luck! Nobody has done that yet. Porsche knows their customers will go beserk if it fails early. Ferrari and Maserati owners just bend over and squeal.

    Should Porsche offer it? As a stockholder I say Yes. Its a great tool to bone customers with on the options list. Will they give it the same warranty as the tip or the manual? Not unless its priced high enough to pay for 3 to 4 replacements.

    Optimum for the track? Yes. For daily use? Forget it.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    @AUM: Sure and absolutely. Like I said above if you find the floppy shifter more fun, go with it.

    It's not like a well driven manual is slow, and the ones that are provided in street cars (F1, DSG, SMG et al) do help intermediate drivers go faster. But for competent drivers maybe fractions of a second on a 2 minute track.

    Like I've said the past, as a track only car, I'd seriously consider a sequential. For a fun street car, I still prefer manuals.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Blimey, not a hot topic then.

    One mans meat etc....

    Thanks for all of your responses.

    I think that clears this little topic up.

    The winner is....who cares, your money, your choice, enjoy!

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Quote:
    911fan said:
    When the DSG shifts, downshifts, etc., the sensation is of a supremely tuned piece of technology, it kind of makes you giggle.





    Awwwwwwwwwwhhhhhh, YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH! "Supremely tuned," and transferring all that Hp/Tq "effortlessly" to the road in front of you. Almost like perfect sex.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Her's another way to look at it. I have SMG in my M3 and love it. I wanna trade my 997S for a Turbo. I'm waiting for nothing in particular to order one. When I finally decide to do it, I'll get the PDK, if PDK isn't available I'll get the manual (unless PDK intro is a week or a month away ). Whatever happens I'm not gonna regret which tranny I wind up with; the car is just too fantastic to care. Something like that... .

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    MMD, you are the perfect buyer for DSG. Really.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    MMD, you are the perfect buyer for DSG. Really.



    Sadly, MMD will be devastated to learn that DSG comes with mandatory eight-color rear taillights and cluttery speed holes in order to set DSG-equipped cars apart cosmetically from manual cars.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    LOL. Nugget, you get that muffler mounted up?

    We should do lunch. I have some questions for you.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Porsche shifters are either floppy and imprecise, esp the 2-3 shift or have that fake " stiction " feeling with various short shifters. Won't miss it at all. Bring on PDK- it's gonna be great with Turbos since boost drop between shifts will be mostly gone.

    Re: Is PDK/DSG really worth it!

    Also had a previously an SMGII M3.
    Indeed it can be fun on track but it's a complete other kind of fun.
    Yes you can a bit focus more on your racing line, but to use it properly on track, well I found it quite difficult to be honest.

    With a manual, you feel the gears, you just sense you just selected second or third... and combining this with revs, you know when you are at a correct entry speed for a given turn.

    With SMGII, you will need to check briefly revs and gear...

    can't explain, but this is the way it worked for me...


    now have a regular transmission on order, but to be honest if PDK was here, I probably would have serieus doubts...
    in real life driving, it is just so nice, not having to declutch on traffic lights etc etc...

     
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