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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

    Well, there is no 570S Spider yet, so... ...relax. indecision

    I am impressed with the weight of the 570S though...Porsche (and Audi) should take an example.

    It is more that they are trying to fool with the people that makes me a bit angry Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Like I said before, I cannot really comment on McLaren fooling people with the 570S because I haven't driven it yet and I haven't "met" one on the road yet.

    I believe in real life encounters on the Autobahn when it comes to straight line performance. It helps however if you know the driver and the car because just two weeks ago, an Audi RS5 Coupe "killed" me on the Autobahn with my GTS Cab and later I found out that the car was supercharged and had almost 600 hp.  Usually, I drive slowly away in the GTS Cab (vs. the new RS 5 Cab).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Still: There are customers who are willing to pay this kind of money, the 991.2 Turbo S Cab is basically sold out in Germany for this year.

    Based on what I heard, both 991.2 Turbo S coupes and the cabs are sold out in Germany until the end of 2016.

    So, to a certain extent, Porsche seeems to be able to get away with being cynical about it. Without a shadow of a doubt, the 991.2 Turbo S is a very capable and fast car, but the 488 and many others mentioned above offer even more performance at a broadly similar price point.  

    But, here is the catch: I suspect that the total annual sales volume of the 991.2 Turbo S exceeds that of most if not all the competitors in the $ 200 plus league combined, in Germany and internationally.

    Many customers don't really care about these bragging rights so much and for most ordinary driving mortals the performance offered by these cars is way beyond what they can realistically hope to, and want to, handle anyway.

    They want to go with the "safe" mainstream choice. That is the sentiment Porsche has been leveraging skillfully to their financial advantage. This party may not go on forever, but for now the music has not stopped...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    olli:

    They want to go with the "safe" mainstream choice. That is the sentiment Porsche has been leveraging skillfully to their financial advantage. This party may not go on forever, but for now the music has not stopped...

    Yep, like the 911 is basically the "Volkswagen" of the wealthy in many parts of the world and especially in Germany. Smiley

    I know the developing team around the Turbo S personally, very capable people and they could do much more but gain margins and cost considerations put a huge brake to their enthusiasm I'm afraid.

    Maybe this is why McLaren is so successful with their model policy: They build "visions" and have fun doing it. Not so sure however how this pans out financially for them.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    I know the developing team around the Turbo S personally, very capable people and they could do much more but gain margins and cost considerations put a huge brake to their enthusiasm I'm afraidI

    I am sure that is spot on, it is the age old tug-of-war between the engineers and the bean-counting accountants...but if you give too much leeway to the engineers, it will end in tears as well...getting the balance right is the challenge. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    No. The owner is a member of McLaren Life.
     

    Here's a 570S with higher trap than a 12C:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdS3aWD1bgU

    Here its traps 135mph against a Huracan which does 129mph
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHLAO6sE8Lo

    The car is the real deal. If it was quicker than a 675LT and 650S in this recent tests, it's because those cars just weren't there that day and those cars would have been even quicker. Different day, different cars, different results.

    While this could be the case (if one believed in McLaren's press strategy Smiley) the test proves that the 570 sucks on the track and on the brake. Bad enough, if you ask me Smiley

    How does the test prove that? Looks nearly identical to me, and the list price is $20K cheaper. It will also do the exact same numbers as a Spider whereas a 911 Cabrio will add 800 lbs.

    It's also on a 225/285 tire set-up.

    Top of the line 911 with more power, more tq, AWD, active aero, RWS is .4s quicker than an entry 570S with no options (because all options are cosmetic.)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    ABSportscars: Audi R8 V10 Plus vs McLaren 570S vs Porsche 991.2 Turbo S

    Sachsenring:

    1:33.46 / 1:33.12 / 1:32.71

    Acceleration:

    0-100: 2,9 / 2,9 / 2,8
    0-130: 4,3 / 4,1 / 4,2
    0-160: 6,0 / 5,7 / 6,0
    0-200: 9.3 / 8,5 / 9,3

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    0-250: 15,7 / 13,8 / 15,7
    0-300: 28,9 / 24,7 / 29,6

    0-402m: 10,64 / 10,46 / 10,56

    Braking:

    100-0 (C): 34,6 m / 33,7 m / 32,6 m
    100-0 (W): 31,7 m / 32,2 m / 31,4 m
    200-0 (W): 120,7 m / 128,4 m / 121,5 m

    Weight: 1,644 kg / 1,440 kg / 1,604 kg

    Tires: MPS Cup 2 (A0) / P Zero Corsa / P Zero (N1)

    Price (Euro): 194,700 / 181,750 / 202,872

    Hmm... Let's point out to the few very important facts.

    SAME example of 570S was tested by Sport Auto CG one month ago. It was sended directly from Motorpresse to Auto Bild Sportscar.

    NOW, that same example was measured by SA...

    0-100km/h 3.2

    0-200km/h 9.2

    0-300km/h 27.3

    1450kg

    Same tires as well...

    For absolutely same car and NO intervention by Mclaren AB Sportscar edition measured numbers are.......strange.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    I have noticed a few strange (ie too fast) 0-300 measurements from Auto Bild over the years maybe their testing regime is not as rigorous as SA but you would have thought they would have applied same methodology to the 991 which at 29.6s is at the slower end of range expected.

    A couple of possible reasons for variations

    Was it a windy day with the Macca being lucky enough to catch a gust (and only tested one way or an average of one big gust one way and zero headwind the other way)- don't laugh this can make a massive difference !

    Is it possible the 570S was first tested on 98RON and then refuelled with 100RON whilst the others had 98RON or worse fuel (the 991 I know is very sensitive to good fuel)


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    997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    TB993tt:

    I have noticed a few strange (ie too fast) 0-300 measurements from Auto Bild over the years maybe their testing regime is not as rigorous as SA but you would have thought they would have applied same methodology to the 991 which at 29.6s is at the slower end of range expected.

    A couple of possible reasons for variations

    Was it a windy day with the Macca being lucky enough to catch a gust (and only tested one way or an average of one big gust one way and zero headwind the other way)- don't laugh this can make a massive difference !

    Is it possible the 570S was first tested on 98RON and then refuelled with 100RON whilst the others had 98RON or worse fuel (the 991 I know is very sensitive to good fuel)


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    997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

    Interesting statement about the 991 being very sensitive to the fuel quality. Based on your experience: what difference can fuel quality make in terms of 0-300 categories in the 991? 

    P.S.: It is extremely unlikely that different fuel can make up for 2.5s in case of the 570, right Smiley My own speculation would rather be a typo or wrong testing procedure/errors Smiley 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    MKSGR:
     

    Interesting statement about the 991 being very sensitive to the fuel quality. Based on your experience: what difference can fuel quality make in terms of 0-300 categories in the 991? 

    P.S.: It is extremely unlikely that different fuel can make up for 2.5s in case of the 570, right Smiley My own speculation would rather be a typo or wrong testing procedure/errors Smiley 

    In truth the sensitivity to fuel is based on 997 but if anything the 991 electronics will be even more sensitive. Engine dyno testing on 997 turbo showed a 50hp drop on lower octane fuel, the VTG turbo motors seem to run close to knock thresholds....

    I agree with you, looks like dodgy testing/typos is more likely. Time will tell Smiley


    --

     

     

    997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    interesting discussion here about times, fuel,testing, etc.  i do think the Turbo S is the superior all around car, and i would select it over the McLaren.  I can certainly understand why the Turbo S is sold out in Germany.

    And a comment and a question about Porsche's high prices and profit margin.  It seems that Porsche does a wonderful job of keeping ahead in engineering and technology (recent new 8 cylinder plant in Zuffenhausen, Mission E, commitment to racing, etc.), as well as providing employment and job satisfaction for its employees (bonuses, investing in Germany, etc.).  That all takes money made and reinvested.  Considering such reinvestment, is Porsche's profit margin on its products  unreasonable?  I would like to read a good discussion, not just another "Porsche's prices are too high" accusation.  Thanks...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    It's sold out in Germany because supply is managed and it's a Germany company. The cars are plentiful everywhere else. 2014 991 Turbos are $120K in the US now. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    noone1:

    It's sold out in Germany because supply is managed and it's a Germany company. The cars are plentiful everywhere else. 2014 991 Turbos are $120K in the US now. 

    I think you've put the cart before the horse in your argumentation. 

    German customers spending the kind of money they have to on a Porsche generally plan their purchase ahead of time and want to spec the car exactly to their wishes, rather than just taking what their dealer happens to have on the showroom floor. Dealers know this and try to keep the number of fully specced cars in their delivery pipeline to an absolute minimum. This means that the cars are generally "sold-out" and have to be ordered from the factory on a delivery which depends on the demand for the model concerned and, sometimes, the availability or lead-times of specific extras ordered by the customer.  

    In other markets, particularly those with longer lead-times due shipping delays, customers might be more inclined to indulge in "instant gratification". Importers have to react to this by engaging in front-loading, and order cars for stock with specs which they would expect to be saleable. Dealers in such markets, in turn, do the same thing. 

    Supply is managed for all markets. Its just that the manner of managing it might vary for different markets. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    The American dealers have quotas that works like government budget, if they don't spend all of it this year, they get less the next. That's why dealers keep ordering showroom cars and then had to discount them to move them.

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    I think if you go into a US dealer and ask to order a new 911 Turbo, the delivery time wouldn't be much different than a Boxster and just depend on what the shipping situation is like. I'd be surprised if delivery was more than 4-6 months.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Whoopsy:

    The American dealers have quotas that works like government budget, if they don't spend all of it this year, they get less the next. That's why dealers keep ordering showroom cars and then had to discount them to move them.

    All importers/dealers have have allocated quotas, not just American dealers. It's just easier to use slots for buyer-specced cars if factory-to dealership shipping time is counted in days rather than weeks. It also explains why European dealers are generally less inclined to give worthwhile discounts. 


    --

     

    fritz

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    I know for a fact getting a 991.2 TTS is much harder than it used to be for the 991.1. I know I asked about upgrading.....


    --

    2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E & 991.2 GT3 on order


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    EnglishManInNY:

    I know for a fact getting a 991.2 TTS is much harder than it used to be for the 991.1. I know I asked about upgrading.....

    Not in Europe. I can get a production slot in 2 months and still change the configuration. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    EnglishManInNY:

    I know for a fact getting a 991.2 TTS is much harder than it used to be for the 991.1. I know I asked about upgrading.....

    That is also my experience in Canada.


    --

    2010 997.2 GT3        2012  987.2 S BE #262/987       


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Hmm, nothing hard about getting one around here.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    noone1:

    Hmm, nothing hard about getting one around here.

    US allocations in general are rather high and probably not representative for ROW. Have you visited a local Porsche center and asked for the next available production slot or what do you based the statement on?

    In Germany, Uk and Sweden they are sold out until beginning of next year. I asked my dealer about one last week since I'm considering to order one.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    I was at a dealer a few weeks ago. Aside from the GT3 RS which they don't have any more allocation for, they can order anything and delivery times would be about 4-6 months. Naturally we're across the ocean, so shipping is what it is. This is pretty normal for a production car like a Porsche coming from overseas.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Noone1 where do you live?

    I suspect in warmer climates the TTS isn't quite in the same demand since people aren't that in need of 4wheel drive. So LA, Miami etc people want more exotic and less practical sports cars.


    --

    2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E & 991.2 GT3 on order


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Northern US.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    There may be some truth regarding hard to get..  

    I ordered a 17 TTS locally back in April for an Oct delivery.  After I ordered I stopped back in and they said that I should be glad I ordered when I did. They advised me that mine was the last one that they could get this year.  No more allocations for TTS available for them til next year.    


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Probably best to go to a dealer that doesn't stock Turbos. If every dealer has a certain number of allocations and dealers in major locales order to have showroom inventory, it's possible they just use up their allocations for the cars. If you go to a dealer that doesn't really stock anything other than SUVs, they probably have allocations available.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Tony007:

    There may be some truth regarding hard to get..  

    I ordered a 17 TTS locally back in April for an Oct delivery.  After I ordered I stopped back in and they said that I should be glad I ordered when I did. They advised me that mine was the last one that they could get this year.  No more allocations for TTS available for them til next year.    

    Maybe he meant if you ordered it now, you wouldn't get into the delivery window for 2016, but rather you'd have gotten it in February 2017 or something like that. If delivery time is 4-6 months, it would be highly unlikely the next Turbo they'd get would next June. That would be way too long and people would just go elsewhere.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    noone1:
    Tony007:

    There may be some truth regarding hard to get..  

    I ordered a 17 TTS locally back in April for an Oct delivery.  After I ordered I stopped back in and they said that I should be glad I ordered when I did. They advised me that mine was the last one that they could get this year.  No more allocations for TTS available for them til next year.    

    Maybe he meant if you ordered it now, you wouldn't get into the delivery window for 2016, but rather you'd have gotten it in February 2017 or something like that. If delivery time is 4-6 months, it would be highly unlikely the next Turbo they'd get would next June. That would be way too long and people would just go elsewhere.

    I have a demand order in place, although I am second in the queue, delivery late winter/spring 2017


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

      ↵

    noone1:
    Tony007:

    There may be some truth regarding hard to get..  

    I ordered a 17 TTS locally back in April for an Oct delivery.  After I ordered I stopped back in and they said that I should be glad I ordered when I did. They advised me that mine was the last one that they could get this year.  No more allocations for TTS available for them til next year.    

    Maybe he meant if you ordered it now, you wouldn't get into the delivery window for 2016, but rather you'd have gotten it in February 2017 or something like that. If delivery time is 4-6 months, it would be highly unlikely the next Turbo they'd get would next June. That would be way too long and people would just go elsewhere.

    To clarify.. He said that their next allocation for TTS delivery will be the beginning of 2017.


     
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