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    Re: 500 miles Review

    Personally, I have never been biased towards any particular brand. I have always bought Porsches because I love their cars. That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that they are no longer using the Turbo platform to compete with the likes of the F430 and Gallardo. Instead, Porsche is now using the 997TT to go up against the SL55/63, and AM DB9.

    Even from a pricing stand point, I don't think that it's a coincidence that the turbo is more in line with the SL55/63 and DB9 rather than the Gallardo and F430. And there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Porsche, is not the one comparing the TT with the F430 and Gallardo. Rather it's the media and the consumers that are not catching on to this transition. For a small company, they made a killing off of the 996TT in coupe and convertible versions in comparison to the 993TT or the 964 turbo.

    We all know that they can build an incredible sounding car like the CGT if they wanted to. But when they come out with an exhaust system on the new 997TT that is on the quieter side, everybody is perplexed, as if Porsche doesn't know what they are doing. They know exactly what they are doing. They are going were the money is. They are going after the main stream MB buyers who are not track oriented but are more about being seen in style while enjoying their comfortable daily commuter.

    Why else would they even push the fact that the tip is faster than the manual if this was not the case? Again is it to compete with Ferrari and Lamborghini who have moved on to the racier F1 tranny or to go against the SL55/63? In the 80's and 90's it was blasphemy to even mention the turbo and automatic in the same sentence.

    Who knows, perhaps Porsche is counting on the new GT2 to fill in the more hard core car role and go up against the F430 and Gallardo. If you think about it, the GT2 is definitely going to be a better match from a pricing stand point as well as the performance arena where it'll be lighter and more agile when competing with the F430 and Gallardo.

    In any case, the 997TT is a great car and will undoubtedly be a great seller for Porsche. I just think that we as consumers, have to come to the realization that it's all about the money and Porsche will do whatever it needs to do to stay as one of the most profitable manufacturers in the world.

    For me, as long as they build cars like the Carrera GT, the GT2 and the GT3, I will gladly wait in line with my check book in hand.

    Amir

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Thank you Amir. You think EXACTLY like me... but you can express yourself much better than me.. I TOTALY Agree with you in every sentence!

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Amir didn't you just say the 997tt was at least on par with the f430/Gallardo? From a performance standpoint it beats both of them in basically every category except sound, so I'm confuse that now you are saying it is a better competitor for AM/MB? I see it as a competitor for all of them because of its dual purpose nature. PASM comfort, SC off for luxo cruising and competeing with MB/AM. SC on PASM sport for smoking 430's and Gallardos on the Ring. Best of both worlds!

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Amir, which of your cars would you keep if you could only have one?

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Quote:
    devo said:
    Sorry, I'm not going to sit and listen to people with too much money complaining about the turbo without adding my 2 cents.
    It's a bleeping turbo: i.e. lag; if you don't want lag buy a n/a big block.


    Or just buy the GT3

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Quote:
    AmirGT2 said:
    Personally, I have never been biased towards any particular brand. I have always bought Porsches because I love their cars. That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that they are no longer using the Turbo platform to compete with the likes of the F430 and Gallardo. Instead, Porsche is now using the 997TT to go up against the SL55/63, and AM DB9.

    Even from a pricing stand point, I don't think that it's a coincidence that the turbo is more in line with the SL55/63 and DB9 rather than the Gallardo and F430. And there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Porsche, is not the one comparing the TT with the F430 and Gallardo. Rather it's the media and the consumers that are not catching on to this transition. For a small company, they made a killing off of the 996TT in coupe and convertible versions in comparison to the 993TT or the 964 turbo.

    We all know that they can build an incredible sounding car like the CGT if they wanted to. But when they come out with an exhaust system on the new 997TT that is on the quieter side, everybody is perplexed, as if Porsche doesn't know what they are doing. They know exactly what they are doing. They are going were the money is. They are going after the main stream MB buyers who are not track oriented but are more about being seen in style while enjoying their comfortable daily commuter.

    Why else would they even push the fact that the tip is faster than the manual if this was not the case? Again is it to compete with Ferrari and Lamborghini who have moved on to the racier F1 tranny or to go against the SL55/63? In the 80's and 90's it was blasphemy to even mention the turbo and automatic in the same sentence.

    Who knows, perhaps Porsche is counting on the new GT2 to fill in the more hard core car role and go up against the F430 and Gallardo. If you think about it, the GT2 is definitely going to be a better match from a pricing stand point as well as the performance arena where it'll be lighter and more agile when competing with the F430 and Gallardo.

    In any case, the 997TT is a great car and will undoubtedly be a great seller for Porsche. I just think that we as consumers, have to come to the realization that it's all about the money and Porsche will do whatever it needs to do to stay as one of the most profitable manufacturers in the world.

    For me, as long as they build cars like the Carrera GT, the GT2 and the GT3, I will gladly wait in line with my check book in hand.

    Amir



    I appreciate this lucid and insightful analysis; it echoes my perceptions perfectly.

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Trip,

    I was referring to the acceleration when I said it was on par. What I was referring to in my previous post was the feel of the car. The intangibles you might say. There is no doubt that it's a fast car but when you compare it to an F430, it feels sterile.

    Back when I bought my 993TT, I thought the 355 was a beautiful car and it sounded tremendous but it couldn't beat the rawness or the pureness of 993TT. It had nothing to do with the sound or looks, it was the feel.

    You are absolutely right, the new car is the best of both worlds and if you can only have one car for a daily driver and a weekend track car, it is THE absolute best car in the world. But for me personally, I don't use these cars in that manner. I use them as weekend toys.

    Again, please do not misunderstand what I'm saying. It's not that the new car is bad but that they are playing to a different crowd. I think the SL55/63/65 are beautiful cars and in the case of the SL65 it is brutally fast. But I have never been tempted to buy one because of it's sterile feel. The turbo is obviously not to that level, but to be honest with you, I am beginning to wonder about the future.

    In any case, my post was not meant to offend anyone but to parlay my experience and expectations after only 500 miles.

    Amir

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Quote:
    AmirGT2 said:
    Personally, I have never been biased towards any particular brand. I have always bought Porsches because I love their cars. That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that they are no longer using the Turbo platform to compete with the likes of the F430 and Gallardo. Instead, Porsche is now using the 997TT to go up against the SL55/63, and AM DB9.

    Even from a pricing stand point, I don't think that it's a coincidence that the turbo is more in line with the SL55/63 and DB9 rather than the Gallardo and F430. And there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Porsche, is not the one comparing the TT with the F430 and Gallardo. Rather it's the media and the consumers that are not catching on to this transition. For a small company, they made a killing off of the 996TT in coupe and convertible versions in comparison to the 993TT or the 964 turbo.

    We all know that they can build an incredible sounding car like the CGT if they wanted to. But when they come out with an exhaust system on the new 997TT that is on the quieter side, everybody is perplexed, as if Porsche doesn't know what they are doing. They know exactly what they are doing. They are going were the money is. They are going after the main stream MB buyers who are not track oriented but are more about being seen in style while enjoying their comfortable daily commuter.

    Why else would they even push the fact that the tip is faster than the manual if this was not the case? Again is it to compete with Ferrari and Lamborghini who have moved on to the racier F1 tranny or to go against the SL55/63? In the 80's and 90's it was blasphemy to even mention the turbo and automatic in the same sentence.

    Who knows, perhaps Porsche is counting on the new GT2 to fill in the more hard core car role and go up against the F430 and Gallardo. If you think about it, the GT2 is definitely going to be a better match from a pricing stand point as well as the performance arena where it'll be lighter and more agile when competing with the F430 and Gallardo.

    In any case, the 997TT is a great car and will undoubtedly be a great seller for Porsche. I just think that we as consumers, have to come to the realization that it's all about the money and Porsche will do whatever it needs to do to stay as one of the most profitable manufacturers in the world.

    For me, as long as they build cars like the Carrera GT, the GT2 and the GT3, I will gladly wait in line with my check book in hand.

    Amir



    Well said

    Only concern would be if P seeks to truly maximize profits, costs of developing/certifying/marketing/svc support to sell only ?50 GT2/yr into US may not make a lot of sense...

    Sports/GT car marketing sweet spot is either $150K SL55/997TT or $210K 430Spider (an awfully cheap car w/its 100% US resale value ).....and Lambo is essentially dead sales-wise and just being propped up by VW/Audi anyway.

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Amir, which of your cars would you keep if you could only have one?



    AUM,

    The CGT without a doubt. I'd sacrifice driving a Yugo as my everyday car as long as I can keep my CGT. Do they still make Yugos? if not, then how about a Ford Pinto?

    Amir

    500 miles Review-Q. for Amir and all 997TT owners

    Just curious and would like to ask the new owners of the 997 the following question.

    1) If you had the opportunity to test drive the 997TT would you still consider buying it?

    2) If you own a 996TT would you suggest upgrading to 997TT?

    Appreciate it.

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Quote:
    AmirGT2 said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Amir, which of your cars would you keep if you could only have one?



    AUM,

    The CGT without a doubt. I'd sacrifice driving a Yugo as my everyday car as long as I can keep my CGT. Do they still make Yugos? if not, then how about a Ford Pinto?

    Amir



    I am becoming even more fan of your Posts.. I can sell all my cars to buy a CGT. I have been in one before 6 months in Germany.. Till then i cant sleep ... What a feeling - sound - brakes everything.
    Here in Greece we have only 1. The good thing is that the guy who has it really enjoy it and most of all is a great driver... (He runs in WRC races too )

    Re: 500 miles Review-Q. for Amir and all 997TT owners

    Ron,

    I think if you were to ask my friends or especially my wife they'd probably tell you that I'm the wrong person to ask because they all think I'm nuts in the head but my answer is yes and yes.

    Amir

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    AmirGT2 said:
    Quote:
    bluelines said:
    Porsche never said they eliminated the turbo lag. What they say is that with VTG it is possible to achieve higher turbine speed, and thus higher boost pressure, at lower engine rpm than with a conventional turbine. That will reduce the turbo lag, not eliminate it.



    Very True, but unfortunately it has not even been reduced. In comparison with the 996 GT2, the lag has actually increased.

    Amir



    Yikes! You're the only one to admit this. Thanks for your candor.



    If Amir says it is so, it is. His comments on all his great cars have always been objective and without emotional influence.

    Keep in mind he did say the 997TT goes like hel, when it spools up. I have not doubt it is a rocket.

    Re: 500 miles Review

    I just had a chance to test drive the 997TT this morning and I definitely mirror Amir's comments on the "goes like hell when it spools up" part. I was coming around a freeway onramp curve when I floored it. Before I knew it, I was going at hyper illegal speeds with this huge grin on my face! This car is FUN to drive!

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Quote:
    VKSF said:



    Only concern would be if P seeks to truly maximize profits, costs of developing/certifying/marketing/svc support to sell only ?50 GT2/yr into US may not make a lot of sense...





    Porsche freely admits to building cars like the GT2 as way to boast their engineering prowess.

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Quote:
    trip said:
    Amir didn't you just say the 997tt was at least on par with the f430/Gallardo? From a performance standpoint it beats both of them in basically every category except sound,



    And looks.


    Quote:
    trip said:


    so I'm confuse that now you are saying it is a better competitor for AM/MB? I see it as a competitor for all of them because of its dual purpose nature. PASM comfort, SC off for luxo cruising and competeing with MB/AM. SC on PASM sport for smoking 430's and Gallardos on the Ring. Best of both worlds!



    The problem is they focus too much in the first world i.e. on comfort. The turbo seems to be too soft and lacks the passion or edge as its formerly Italian counterpart.

    The turbo is soft and mushy like a big pink Cadillac. j/k

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Quote:
    AmirGT2 said:
    Personally, I have never been biased towards any particular brand. I have always bought Porsches because I love their cars. That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that they are no longer using the Turbo platform to compete with the likes of the F430 and Gallardo. Instead, Porsche is now using the 997TT to go up against the SL55/63, and AM DB9.

    Even from a pricing stand point, I don't think that it's a coincidence that the turbo is more in line with the SL55/63 and DB9 rather than the Gallardo and F430. And there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Porsche, is not the one comparing the TT with the F430 and Gallardo. Rather it's the media and the consumers that are not catching on to this transition. For a small company, they made a killing off of the 996TT in coupe and convertible versions in comparison to the 993TT or the 964 turbo.

    We all know that they can build an incredible sounding car like the CGT if they wanted to. But when they come out with an exhaust system on the new 997TT that is on the quieter side, everybody is perplexed, as if Porsche doesn't know what they are doing. They know exactly what they are doing. They are going were the money is. They are going after the main stream MB buyers who are not track oriented but are more about being seen in style while enjoying their comfortable daily commuter.

    Why else would they even push the fact that the tip is faster than the manual if this was not the case? Again is it to compete with Ferrari and Lamborghini who have moved on to the racier F1 tranny or to go against the SL55/63? In the 80's and 90's it was blasphemy to even mention the turbo and automatic in the same sentence.

    Who knows, perhaps Porsche is counting on the new GT2 to fill in the more hard core car role and go up against the F430 and Gallardo. If you think about it, the GT2 is definitely going to be a better match from a pricing stand point as well as the performance arena where it'll be lighter and more agile when competing with the F430 and Gallardo.

    In any case, the 997TT is a great car and will undoubtedly be a great seller for Porsche. I just think that we as consumers, have to come to the realization that it's all about the money and Porsche will do whatever it needs to do to stay as one of the most profitable manufacturers in the world.

    For me, as long as they build cars like the Carrera GT, the GT2 and the GT3, I will gladly wait in line with my check book in hand.

    Amir



    Appreciate the input. Thanks

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    In trying not to give too much Porsche failed to give enough



    That's almost Zen like. And I agree.

    Re: 500 miles Review-Q. for Amir and all 997TT owners

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Just curious and would like to ask the new owners of the 997 the following question.

    1) If you had the opportunity to test drive the 997TT would you still consider buying it?

    2) If you own a 996TT would you suggest upgrading to 997TT?

    Appreciate it.



    Have 996TTS Tip Coupe now; will get 997TT Tip in Jul-Aug.

    Find reviews mixed to-date. Esp interested to know how 50-120MPH accel of 997TT will compare vs 599 and 65. Still don't understand all these turbo lag claims vs 997TT's tq curve....

    But have gotten many new cars w/o driving beforehand; find it takes at least 500-1000 mis to really appreciate daily/wkend driving nuances of any car....and even jaded buyers often have divergent subjective impressions

    Suspect will always get a new 997TT Tip/PDK every 6-12 mos. But if 997TT fails to impress, will just replace it w/CL65 in early '07.

    Re: 500 miles Review-Q. for Amir and all 997TT owners

    Yes, I would absolutely buy the car given what I now know, having not driven one before my purchase I haven't seen a review that suggested someone (who owns the car) would reconsider.
    I agree that you need some time behind the wheel to fully appreciate and acclimate. I sense most will bond will these cars over time.

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Quote:

    If Amir says it is so, it is. His comments on all his great cars have always been objective and without emotional influence.

    Keep in mind he did say the 997TT goes like hel, when it spools up. I have not doubt it is a rocket.



    Hey Nick,

    Amir doesn't know what he's talking about. I had a chance to drive his 997TT on Sunday -- what a slug! Just kidding.

    Actually, we both agreed that the 997TT is a very nice car and better than the 996 Turbo in many respects, however it has become even more of GT than the previous model. It's way too uninvolving and sterile for my personal taste. But then again, I'm quite strange (just ask my good friend, Amir) -- sold my GT2 for a GT3 and then discovered that the Lotus was even more FUN on the track than the GT3.

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Hi Jack,
    Didn't know you were on here as well. Your Exige Cup Comp will likely be even more fun still, but perhaps a bit scary as well?

    - Justin

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Amir, your comments and opinions are especially valuable, and appreciated, given your unique prospective - thanks so much for your candor.

    Is the new 997tt really more satisfying to drive than the 997s and why?


    Re: 500 miles Review

    This is a tough thread for a first post, but I just bought my 997TT and it will be here in about one week. I bought my last P-car 6 years ago and I am looking forward to the delivery of this car. I live close by to Amir and spoke to him briefly. He is sincere and very kind in conversation as he is on the forum and obviously has "hands-on" experience with literally the world's finest sports cars, so his opinions carry some serious weight.

    The 997TT is my only sports car and will be for a long time to come as it was a stretch for me to finally get into such a beautiful car. I am grateful to be lucky enough to own a car like this. While I appreciate all of the finer points many of you have discussed, and while the controversy over the VTG lag, exhaust sound and suspension will go on in the form of rhetorical dialectic for days and months on end, I will be smack dab in the middle of my garage in the wee hours of the night admiring my new Porsche car.

    Re: 500 miles Review

    I just love the direction the turbo is heading.

    Don't track, just want a powerful car and appreciate how the turbo puts the power down without pathetic wheelspins like the AMG 55/65s.

    The fact that the car is nice and quiet is most appealing I can use the phone PCM module!

    Re: 500 miles Review-Q. for Amir and all 997TT owners

    Quote:
    VKSF said:Still don't understand all these turbo lag claims vs 997TT's tq curve....


    A torque curve is very deceiving on a turbocharged car. There is another critical variable that is not represented on the two dimensional graph of torque vs. rpm and that is Engine Load.

    Turbos require load on the engine to spool the turbos, so the torque curve is only accurate under the most optimal of situtions. If the engine is unloaded (like revving in neutral or coasting in a high gear), there is inadequate exhaust flow and consequently, there is minimal turbine speed.

    So, the engine will need MUCH higher rpms to build boost and create large amount of torque than what the torque curve will show, unless the motor is under load.

    This is why the 997TT launches so well with the Tip and brake torquing - it creates a load on the engine as the car strains to break free and the brakes keep the car stationary.

    This is totally different from normally aspirated motors (where the torque curve can be trusted in all cases) and often overlooked...

    Re: 500 miles Review-Q. for Amir and all 997TT owners

    Amir may be correct that PAG may go after the SL/AMG market, but... the 997TT is no MB SL, it is a 911 Porsche. Why? it has an engine in the rear and it feels like no other car feels. If one sees and feels the car this way, one is a true 911 fan, otherwise, one is only after the new toy on the block.

    Also... the turbo is no more GT than a base 911. Why do people say that? Because it has standard NAV, Bose, etc? well... most of the options I see broadcast by new users include those options and then some... so why is the turbo more luxo-GT?

    On the turbo lag thing... of course there is a lag... it is a turbo, which is a feedback system design. But it is a small lag, it must be, when the torque curve is flat from 1900RPM on, and I am not saying that above 1900RPM there won't be turbo lag, as surely there will be - I'm just saying that the lag must be smaller than the 996TT's. People's perception of time and acceleration is often warped by other variables. It also depends very much on driving habits. Are you an off/on foot on the floor driver, or a smooth, progressive, driver? I for one, prefer the latter, where lag is far less noticeable.

    Re: 500 miles Review

    thanks amir!
    look forward to hearing even more specifics..impressions...etc.
    curious how the handling is different -- the "planted" feeling -- etc.
    especially vis-a-vis the 996 turbo... thanks! enjoy!

    (saw my first turbo i think it santa monica heading west from brentwood on san vicente over the weekend)

    Re: 500 miles Review-Q. for Amir and all 997TT owners

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    VKSF said:Still don't understand all these turbo lag claims vs 997TT's tq curve....


    A torque curve is very deceiving on a turbocharged car. There is another critical variable that is not represented on the two dimensional graph of torque vs. rpm and that is Engine Load.

    Turbos require load on the engine to spool the turbos, so the torque curve is only accurate under the most optimal of situtions. If the engine is unloaded (like revving in neutral or coasting in a high gear), there is inadequate exhaust flow and consequently, there is minimal turbine speed.

    So, the engine will need MUCH higher rpms to build boost and create large amount of torque than what the torque curve will show, unless the motor is under load.

    This is why the 997TT launches so well with the Tip and brake torquing - it creates a load on the engine as the car strains to break free and the brakes keep the car stationary.

    This is totally different from normally aspirated motors (where the torque curve can be trusted in all cases) and often overlooked...



    Although I agree with this analysis, I also wonder about the ECUs in these turbos. They are brand new off the dock and may need some "breaking in" (not to mention the VTGs.

    I think the jury will still be out until we get some 3000 mile and then subsequently 10000km reports.

    Re: 500 miles Review

    Quote:
    mastiffdog said:
    This is a tough thread for a first post, but I just bought my 997TT and it will be here in about one week. I bought my last P-car 6 years ago and I am looking forward to the delivery of this car. I live close by to Amir and spoke to him briefly. He is sincere and very kind in conversation as he is on the forum and obviously has "hands-on" experience with literally the world's finest sports cars, so his opinions carry some serious weight.

    The 997TT is my only sports car and will be for a long time to come as it was a stretch for me to finally get into such a beautiful car. I am grateful to be lucky enough to own a car like this. While I appreciate all of the finer points many of you have discussed, and while the controversy over the VTG lag, exhaust sound and suspension will go on in the form of rhetorical dialectic for days and months on end, I will be smack dab in the middle of my garage in the wee hours of the night admiring my new Porsche car.



    welcome to the forum. Nice choice

     
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