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    Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    This afternoon, I went to take a quick peek at the Northland Porsche Dealership here in Cincinnati and was surprised to find a Speed Yellow GT3 and a matching CGT.

    The CGT had a black interior and was awaiting delivery outside in the bright sunshine. I wonder whether this car will stay in Cincinnati and if so, who owns it. The car was stripped of its delivery packaging and looked ready to be picked up by the owner. From a distance, the clearance looked a bit higher although I may be mistaken. One thing is for sure, Speed Yellow is so riveting on a supercar like this that it is going to attract attention from near and far if it is ever driven on the street. It does brighten one's day, though, to see such a spendid car in such a spendid color. I do hope it will be driven extensively on the street. Sorry, I don't have any pictures.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    I assume the CGT is Fayence Yellow, since I don't think paint-to-sample has been available for long enough to have had this car participate.

    I just called Beechmont and Bruce speculated that the car may not be already sold. Perhaps it wll be at the dealership for a few more days so I can run over and see it

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    I assume the CGT is Fayence Yellow, since I don't think paint-to-sample has been available for long enough to have had this car participate.

    I just called Beechmont and Bruce speculated that the car may not be already sold. Perhaps it wll be at the dealership for a few more days so I can run over and see it



    Mike,

    Bruce's speculation is correct. I just spoke to a pleasant sales lady named Ruth at Northland. She told me it is Speed Yellow and is for sale. They are quoting an asking price of $480k. It will be in there so that people can take a look at it, take pictures, and, for the serious potential buyers, test-drive it. If you are going to test-drive it, please send me a p.m. I'd love to hear your first-hand impression of the clutch and confirm whether it truly is speed yellow.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    In past 2-3 wks, I've heard of roughly 6-10 guys who have gotten CGT and want to get rid of it....describing it as worst sportscar they've ever had....common theme: no one seems to be "competent" enough to use this marvelous clutch....and these are long-time P buyers who have been through numerous GT2/3, etc.....smells like P has a marketing disaster on its hands...with an unhappy group of very affluent P buyers and loyalists....

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Geez, it must be horrible to stall the car, or smoke the tires..

    RC, you drove the CGT, how is the clutch?

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    In past 2-3 wks, I've heard of roughly 6-10 guys who have gotten CGT and want to get rid of it....describing it as worst sportscar they've ever had....common theme: no one seems to be "competent" enough to use this marvelous clutch....and these are long-time P buyers who have been through numerous GT2/3, etc.....smells like P has a marketing disaster on its hands...with an unhappy group of very affluent P buyers and loyalists....



    It does not seem to be a problem for Jay Leno who already drove it 500 miles in LA:

    http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=100642

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    In past 2-3 wks, I've heard of roughly 6-10 guys who have gotten CGT and want to get rid of it....describing it as worst sportscar they've ever had....common theme: no one seems to be "competent" enough to use this marvelous clutch....and these are long-time P buyers who have been through numerous GT2/3, etc.....smells like P has a marketing disaster on its hands...with an unhappy group of very affluent P buyers and loyalists....


    Maybe they do not have the skills to use the clutch. This might be a skill that not everyone will acquire. For those that do acquire the skills to use the clutch, according to Jay Leno who is a true enthusiast, it is an awesome car.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    It's a RACING clutch, why do people act so surprised when it acts like one?

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    common theme: no one seems to be "competent" enough to use this marvelous clutch....and these are long-time P buyers who have been through numerous GT2/3, etc.....



    Just because someone owns or has owned numerous GT2/GT3's in the past doesn't mean they drive/drove that particular car every single day in order to keep their clutch skills up to date.
    I, myself, drive two almost identical cars with completely different OEM clutches on a daily basis and if I drive both cars on the same day or if I don't drive either one for as little as one week, I feel ashamed and incompetant when I don't execute a 1-2 or 2-3 shift perfectly without the slightest jerk or completely misjudge the amount of revs needed for a 3-2 or 2-1 double clutch downshift. As a result, I extend the drive until I have rectified my mistakes and redeemed myself. Then, I feel very good until I realize it's time to end the drive even though I don't want to. This is my experience with easy, docile daily drivers.

    Absolutely no one is going to be competent to drive a Carrera GT, the street version of a beastly Le Mans race car, stall-free on the first, second, or third day. Walter Rohrl and Roland Kussmaul themselves stalled the car many times on the track and street at first. If they had to drive the car for the first time on the hills of San Francisco or Cincinnati in traffic, I'm sure they would have stalled it. But being hard-working individuals, the more they drove it, the more concentration and effort and practice they put in, the smoother and more confident they became with the CGT. If you don't believe me, read this:
    From Amazon.com, I bought the CGT book written by Elmar Brummer/Jutta Deiss/Reiner Schloz. On page 94, one paragraph describes how the test drivers and project engineers had a clutch learning curve as well:

    The new ceramic clutch is surprisingly light in action, considering the power [and longevity] it has to handle, though its initial response is rather difficult to get used to. Don't put your money where your left foot is -- it takes a modicum of practice before smooth drive-offs are possible every time. Nor should you weep tears of shame if you stall the engine once or twice. Porsche's own GT drivers have been known to set off by leaps and bounds as well. Roland Kussmaul, the Carrera GT project's technical manager, has many test kilometers behind him, and is therefore entitled to comment: "The clutch is more tolerant than people think, and you quickly get used to it.

    From a psychological point of view, the CGT makes all of its new, inexperienced drivers feel ashamed and rejected. A new, inexperienced CGT driver is defined as one who has less than 365 days and 20,000 miles of seat time. Humans don't like being rejected especially when they are not prepared for it or when they have difficulty dealing with it. I have been driving manual cars since the age of 11, and if I spent $500k and didn't know beforehand that the CGT stalls at the drop of a hat unless a specific technique is used, I would be shocked and disappointed. In one hour of drivng the CGT, I've would have been made to look like a fool. If my ego couldn't take this kind of rejection, and I refused to listen to people who said that if I work hard at it I will eventually learn the proper technique, I would be trading that CGT for another more forgiving supercar a.s.a.p.

    When asked about the difficulty of getting used to the clutch, Jay Leno lends some perspective:

    I have a number of W.O. Bentleys and that is a hard car to shift. You grind gears. I called the guy I bought the first one from and he says, "You'll get the hang of it," and he was right. You just feel a great amount of satisfaction from learning and performing the mechanical process of shifting.

    For those who are not familiar with BBC's Top Gear program, you'll be surprised to learn that Jeremy Clarkson exaggerates on a few rare occasions However, on this particular T.V. test-drive, his description is "dead on balls" accurate ("It's an industry term").

    When he says,

    Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah! You NEED to be awake to drive this fast!
    It really isn't an easy car to control. The clutch is BRUTAL. The power is SAVAGE. And the handling, you really are on a KNIFE EDGE. BUT! If you put in the effort, boy, oh boy, do you get the rewards.


    Brutal. Savage. Knife Edge. Effort = Reward. Isn't this a supercar that true car enthusiasts have been dreaming about? I sure have. If it isn't, something is wrong with me and the project leaders at Porsche who brought the Carrera GT to life.

    How many people are willing and able to buy a toy like this and then put in the required, daily effort to reap the rewards from a street-legal race car? Those 1000 customers who ordered the CGT sight unseen because they wanted the best, the most expensive, and the most extreme supercar Porsche had to offer. Did they really think Porsche would instead deliver a $500k wimp of a car to be driven to the country club, golf course, dinner with the significant other, grocery shopping, poseur cruises, and leisurely Sunday drives? If so, they should have made the check out to McLaren-Mercedes or Ford.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Quote:
    W8MM said:Perhaps it wll be at the dealership for a few more days so I can run over and see it



    And maybe give the clutch a try? as someone who has owned and tracked a 962 among other such cars, and street Porsches, your impression on it would be what I'd consider the bottom line on the matter as far as I'm concerned.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    I didn't get to drive it because it was sold last night.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    They claim it brought the full USD480K asking price from a customer in California.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    I met Ruth, who talked to Maverick by telephone. She was convinced that the car was Speed Yellow because that's what color she was told to call it by the general manager. They were both wrong. It is definitely Fayence Yellow. They also thought there would be 1600 total production, but I didn't argue with them. This is an insight about why I don't purchase cars from them anymore.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Contrary to all the down-in-the-mouth buzz about nobody wanting Carrera GTs, this car sold in one day for somewhat above MSRP.

    Maybe there are too many GT Silver cars around?

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Just because someone owns or has owned numerous GT2/GT3's in the past doesn't mean they drive/drove that particular car every single day in order to keep their clutch skills up to date.
    I, myself, drive two almost identical cars with completely different OEM clutches on a daily basis and if I drive both cars on the same day or if I don't drive either one for as little as one week, I feel ashamed and incompetant when I don't execute a 1-2 or 2-3 shift perfectly without the slightest jerk or completely misjudge the amount of revs needed for a 3-2 or 2-1 double clutch downshift. As a result, I extend the drive until I have rectified my mistakes and redeemed myself. Then, I feel very good until I realize it's time to end the drive even though I don't want to. This is my experience with easy, docile daily drivers.



    Maverick,

    In my experience, you speak the gospel truth. It's refreshing to hear someone expound on a taboo (self depreciating), but clearly observable phenomenon. I agree whole heartedly with your entire point of view.

    Cheers,

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Thanks for the pics mike. The CGT is so hot in yellow, black, or red, yet dull in silver. I would like to know the breakdown of colors in those cars actually ordered dircetly by customers.

    As far as the clutch, i learned to drive cars and motorcycles on my own without any teaching regarding clutch use. I have driven many different cars and all are different like maverick said. But once you drive a certain distance it should become clear how to feather the clutch and how quickly to let up along with the proper rpm's. I just do not understand this problem. Whatever is necessary, either just letting the clutch out with no gas on start-up or running up the revs just do it right once and then repeat it. Why all the mystery?
    Tom

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    They claim it brought the full USD480K asking price from a customer in California.



    That'll be Nick.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    I could not agree with you more. Even 911s do take some skill to control their clutch properly. I see around here lots of high-rev slippage and no wonder some clutches wear fast.

    BTW... a lot of recent P-car drivers do not know how to drive a stick, they by a manual for the machoi value, when they should have bought a tip and no shame.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    common theme: no one seems to be "competent" enough to use this marvelous clutch....and these are long-time P buyers who have been through numerous GT2/3, etc.....



    Just because someone owns or has owned numerous GT2/GT3's in the past doesn't mean they drive/drove that particular car every single day in order to keep their clutch skills up to date.
    I, myself, drive two almost identical cars with completely different OEM clutches on a daily basis and if I drive both cars on the same day or if I don't drive either one for as little as one week, I feel ashamed and incompetant when I don't execute a 1-2 or 2-3 shift perfectly without the slightest jerk or completely misjudge the amount of revs needed for a 3-2 or 2-1 double clutch downshift. As a result, I extend the drive until I have rectified my mistakes and redeemed myself. Then, I feel very good until I realize it's time to end the drive even though I don't want to. This is my experience with easy, docile daily drivers.

    Absolutely no one is going to be competent to drive a Carrera GT, the street version of a beastly Le Mans race car, stall-free on the first, second, or third day. Walter Rohrl and Roland Kussmaul themselves stalled the car many times on the track and street at first. If they had to drive the car for the first time on the hills of San Francisco or Cincinnati in traffic, I'm sure they would have stalled it. But being hard-working individuals, the more they drove it, the more concentration and effort and practice they put in, the smoother and more confident they became with the CGT. If you don't believe me, read this:
    From Amazon.com, I bought the CGT book written by Elmar Brummer/Jutta Deiss/Reiner Schloz. On page 94, one paragraph describes how the test drivers and project engineers had a clutch learning curve as well:

    The new ceramic clutch is surprisingly light in action, considering the power [and longevity] it has to handle, though its initial response is rather difficult to get used to. Don't put your money where your left foot is -- it takes a modicum of practice before smooth drive-offs are possible every time. Nor should you weep tears of shame if you stall the engine once or twice. Porsche's own GT drivers have been known to set off by leaps and bounds as well. Roland Kussmaul, the Carrera GT project's technical manager, has many test kilometers behind him, and is therefore entitled to comment: "The clutch is more tolerant than people think, and you quickly get used to it.

    From a psychological point of view, the CGT makes all of its new, inexperienced drivers feel ashamed and rejected. A new, inexperienced CGT driver is defined as one who has less than 365 days and 20,000 miles of seat time. Humans don't like being rejected especially when they are not prepared for it or when they have difficulty dealing with it. I have been driving manual cars since the age of 11, and if I spent $500k and didn't know beforehand that the CGT stalls at the drop of a hat unless a specific technique is used, I would be shocked and disappointed. In one hour of drivng the CGT, I've would have been made to look like a fool. If my ego couldn't take this kind of rejection, and I refused to listen to people who said that if I work hard at it I will eventually learn the proper technique, I would be trading that CGT for another more forgiving supercar a.s.a.p.

    When asked about the difficulty of getting used to the clutch, Jay Leno lends some perspective:

    I have a number of W.O. Bentleys and that is a hard car to shift. You grind gears. I called the guy I bought the first one from and he says, "You'll get the hang of it," and he was right. You just feel a great amount of satisfaction from learning and performing the mechanical process of shifting.

    For those who are not familiar with BBC's Top Gear program, you'll be surprised to learn that Jeremy Clarkson exaggerates on a few rare occasions However, on this particular T.V. test-drive, his description is "dead on balls" accurate ("It's an industry term").

    When he says,

    Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah! You NEED to be awake to drive this fast!
    It really isn't an easy car to control. The clutch is BRUTAL. The power is SAVAGE. And the handling, you really are on a KNIFE EDGE. BUT! If you put in the effort, boy, oh boy, do you get the rewards.


    Brutal. Savage. Knife Edge. Effort = Reward. Isn't this a supercar that true car enthusiasts have been dreaming about? I sure have. If it isn't, something is wrong with me and the project leaders at Porsche who brought the Carrera GT to life.

    How many people are willing and able to buy a toy like this and then put in the required, daily effort to reap the rewards from a street-legal race car? Those 1000 customers who ordered the CGT sight unseen because they wanted the best, the most expensive, and the most extreme supercar Porsche had to offer. Did they really think Porsche would instead deliver a $500k wimp of a car to be driven to the country club, golf course, dinner with the significant other, grocery shopping, poseur cruises, and leisurely Sunday drives? If so, they should have made the check out to McLaren-Mercedes or Ford.



    All excellent points, Maverick. However, my main observation is that P may have a marketing failure in engineering a clutch that seems to have caused a great degree of dissatisfaction among (at least anecdotally) many early CGT owners. My suspicion is that the universe of individuals w/the financial resources to afford a $500K supercar, as well as the driving skills, time and patience to (possibly) eventually master this clutch is probably dwarfed by the number of CGTs that P hopes to sell. From anecdotal feedback I've received, CGT owners seem to have views of CGT (and driving skills and interest in hard-core sportscars) more in line w/our friend LarryB. In fact, I suspect some shrewd, unhappy CGT owners will probably remain relatively quiet re: their views on CGT, at least until they can sell their CGT.

    Leno's views I discount heavily as we don't know if he is actually paying full cost for his CGT.....his views may be as reliably upbeat (and conflicted) as those of any loyal P engineer/executive/investor re: CGT.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Quote:
    VKSF said:Leno's views I discount heavily as we don't know if he is actually paying full cost for his CGT.....his views may be as reliably upbeat (and conflicted) as those of any loyal P engineer/executive/investor re: CGT.



    So, ... you seem to be suspicious of people with connections. But what kind of connections do we have in this case?

    I happen to think that a certifiable car crazy with more money than Croesus would be relatively immune from the temptations of a mere discount.

    The web pix you see of his "loaner car" have the same front license plates as the press car featured on the cover of the June 2004 issue of Car and Driver. I conclude from this evidence that he has a "Press Loaner Car" in the studio driveway.





    Since he is a known member of the automotive press pool via his magazine articles and columns, it seems to me that Porsche has been presented with a rare opportunity, indeed. Here is a legitimate press writer that is actually BUYING an example of the vehicle being reviewed. Why shouldn't Porsche give him a turn at the same press car experience that other writers had?

    He can afford any car he wants, no matter how much it costs. If he likes it enough to buy it, why wouldn't he like it better than cars he decided NOT to buy? I'm upbeat about my car purchases. Aren't you?

    I consider Jay Leno's opinions to be as reliable, if not more so, than any other poster/owner we might encounter on these threads.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    VK, you might be right about the "user-unfriendly" character of the CGT's transmission components and a therefore difficult issue for most drivers wit experience on automatic gearboxes. Funny thing is that nobody complaint about the 911 RS 2.7's tricky handling back then but made it become famous for its rewarding driving character.
    Handling a clutch doesn't seem to be as much of a reward.

    Maverick, I share your opinion!

    It raises the question in myself if Porsche should've better presented the clutch issue in the beginning, something like "you buy the most sophisticated clutch in the world, so better prepare yourself for that". It appears to me as if they rather want to remain in silence on that issue, hoping that people will become used to it.

    As a bottom line it will a lot of carenthusiast make think about their driving attitude - what is so great about collecting supercars if you cannot handle them?
    I don't want to misjudge on anybody complaining about their CGT but it still remains a kind of mistery to me how this clutch can receive so much beating!

    Mike, since I discovered you also drove your 962 could you tell us a little bit about its characteristic, mainly regarding the clutch?

    Greetings!

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Mike, since I discovered you also drove your 962 could you tell us a little bit about its characteristic, mainly regarding the clutch?



    Well, ... the last time I drove the 962 was quite a number of years ago. I recall the whole experience of adapting to it to be not much of a big deal.

    The engine in the 962 started and idled just like a normal 911. IIRC, the clutch seemed to be not quite as "grabby" as the one in my ex-IROC car. I think I remember some "snatch and rattle" when getting it moving from rest on the grid. There was a little tendency towards a final "lurch" when the clutch finally hooked up all the way.

    I recall exactly NO clutch-action problems with controlling small movements forward while in the pits or paddock, by simply using some generous RPM and feathering the clutch. Now, ... I wasn't trying to impress a valet at the local "where-to-be-seen" club or restaurant with my smoothness. I was at a racetrack where somewhat inelegant launches did not detract from the experience.

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    They claim it brought the full USD480K asking price from a customer in California.



    The Californian might have seen a local Black C-GT that dealership paid $500K for as used and has marked up to $590K. It sits .....

    Re: Yellow CGT Delivery in Cincinnati

    Great pix, Mike--thanks for sharing.

     
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