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    Re: audi

    Could you lay out some specifics on your opinion? I'm just curious. Write your post like a driver would once he's reached his pit bay.

    C&D seems to have a very specific definition of handling that can inferred by their comments on the S4.


    Mike,
    Feeling any ease over your CGT color decision? I've decided against yellow myself even though it's a beautiful color for a sports car. I'm too young for the color, in this sense that it would exude irresponsibility on my part whenever someone sees me in it (19 years of age, Lotus Elise). Seal grey is very nice, but perhaps a little sterile compared to yelow?

    Re: audi

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    Could you lay out some specifics on your opinion? I'm just curious. Write your post like a driver would once he's reached his pit bay.



    Sports Car Internatinal's July 2003's issue take the S4 to the track and they occupy 50% of the test talking about the S4's steering in detail, since they found it was its mayor weakness(too long for me to type and quote here), followed by its brakes, in an otherwise great package, OTOH they praised the chasis and how it improved from previous versions.

    Re: audi

    Quote:
    AMGeater said:
    #1, sorry to say but the guys at C&D are numb nuts. I never read American car publications, they suck. Perioid.

    ...

    Im not saying the S4 is a crap car, Im saying that compared to the M3 it has CRAP handaling, PERIOD. Take it how you want, but you can't convince me of anything different.



    Where do you live?

    Did you drive USA versions of these cars, or did you drive cars outfitted for a market different from the one I live in?

    Maybe that's where we differ?

    Also, was the S4 you drove the B5 chassis or the brand new B6 version that was tested in C and D?

    Re: audi

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Sports Car Internatinal's July 2003's issue take the S4 to the track and they occupy 50% of the test talking about the S4's steering in detail, since they found it was its mayor weakness(too long for me to type and quote here), followed by its brakes, in an otherwise great package, OTOH they praised the chasis and how it improved from previous versions.



    Car and Driver's test used road driving around Sedona, AZ as part of their evaluation. Since I have known the editor that wrote the comparo for about 25 years, and his observations match my subjective (though not rigorous) impressions, I have to think that track driving must be a bit different from fast back road driving. It may have something to do with greater elevation changes or a preponderance of off-camber turns, or something

    Re: audi

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    Mike,
    Feeling any ease over your CGT color decision? I've decided against yellow myself even though it's a beautiful color for a sports car. I'm too young for the color, in this sense that it would exude irresponsibility on my part whenever someone sees me in it (19 years of age, Lotus Elise). Seal grey is very nice, but perhaps a little sterile compared to yelow?



    Justin,

    I'm still in a quandry over the color.

    Since I'm well into "middle age", maybe I can get away with yellow as not too punkish. I've had Signal Yellow Porsches for the past 21 years. But, I haven't been able to see Fayence "in the flesh" yet.

    If I turn out to like Fayence, then that's what it will be. If not, Seal Grey or GT Silver would be my other 2 leanings.

    Re: audi

    Quote:
    W8MM said:Car and Driver's test used road driving around Sedona, AZ as part of their evaluation. Since I have known the editor that wrote the comparo for about 25 years, and his observations match my subjective (though not rigorous) impressions, I have to think that track driving must be a bit different from fast back road driving. It may have something to do with greater elevation changes or a preponderance of off-camber turns, or something



    Its possible, I haven't tried an S4 road or track so I'm no help comparing that
    I could scan the article part on the steering for you to compare their track impressions with your road impressions if you want.

    I do know Sport Auto tested the S4 vs the M3 at hockenheim and the M3 was noticeably faster "at the track" but I can't read german to read their comments

    Re: audi

    Wow it seems like there comes a point where you have to "get into it" with everyone here at some point or another. Honestly wether you believe me or not, whatever you feel is your'e deal, A.S.A.T. I am not an automotive editor, but I will say this. I drove both the S4 and the M3 down Cannan canyon, as well as a few other roads in the area that have extremely tight "S" curves. When driving the S4(50 - 70mph) I noticed that when approaching a tight corner, that as soon as I began to brake and steer the car into the corner, that the steering gave me a lot of kick back and became very numb, its almost as if it fell apart. I couldn't feel a thing. Basically the car understeered like a *****, and it was very very nose heavy. I know there is a certain driving technique to ease the steering, but I can't remember quite exactly what it is. Besides you shouldn't have to use some specific driving technique in order to bring the car back into line. AUDI NEEDS TO WORK ON IT'S STEERING, AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

    If you feel that Im wrong, or that C&D is more trust worthy, well then that fine with me. I could care less. And "W8MM" I do remember that the car had a 4.2 liter V-8? And it looked an awful lot like the new A4??? Hmm maybe it was a B6??? And the spec was, as far as I can remember, was U.S???

    As far as this topic goes, im done. Lets talk about something new, maybe the new A6??????????????????????????

    Re: audi

    Quote:
    AMGeater said:
    Wow it seems like there comes a point where you have to "get into it" with everyone here at some point or another.



    We always enjoy reading the experiences of others and their opinions based on actual driving. However, sometimes it is more useful for us if you provide specific examples, rather than having us simply believe something you say in good faith. Imagine if you were putting a new set of adjustable coilovers on your M3 and you went back to your mechanic, telling him it "handles like crap". I'm sure he could fix the problem in no time.

    To help you out next time you wish to drive a sports sedan quickly through the canyons, do you think smoothing your inputs out a little may help? I've experienced steering kickback with a few German sedans, but only when I was being jerky with my hands. It happens less if you can also use less steering lock and throttle steer more instead. If you are unwilling to drive different cars in different ways, you will never extract the most performance out of them. Even the lines you take in a 996 vs. M3 may differ.

    - J

    PS: Are you referring to Kanan? I've never heard of Cannan. If you are, I suggest staying off that road for performance driving because it has too much commuter traffic. For that matter, there isn't much tight stuff there anyway. There are many other suitable roads in the area.

    Re: audi

    Yes, *Kanan. Can't believe I spelled that wrong!!! I don't know when you have been there, but most of the time I take Kanan there is very little if no traffic at all. And if you think I don't know what Im talking about or that Im lying, thats your'e problelm.

    Anway there are a couple of more roads I can't name right now that are really good for breaking a car in that are out that way. Las Virgenes is fun, but a little to much traffic. I know there are even better roads right outside the coast line in N. Cal.

    Re: audi

    Too bad I don't live up in that area, as you do. At the very least, you always have a chance to let your car stretch its legs when the chance arrives. Perhaps a dozen or so roads just in the area!? There isn't much in San Diego.

    Re: audi

    Ah I just remembered the name of the road, Latigo Cyn. I know that you can take Agoura rd. turn right on Kanan, then go down Kanan a little, and you will hit Latigo Canyon Rd. as you go further down, make a right, and get ready to rock and roll. I love Latigo!!!!!!! Mulholand has it's fun parts, as it is very very long, but there again you have a big chance of running into some thick traffic. I don't know about Decker Cyn., haven't been there for a while, think I might go there tomm. for a refresher, and Encinal is great too, although not as much fun as Latigo. When I can think of more I'll post more.

    Re: audi

    Quote:
    AMGeater said:Basically the car understeered like a *****, and it was very very nose heavy. I know there is a certain driving technique to ease the steering, but I can't remember quite exactly what it is. Besides you shouldn't have to use some specific driving technique in order to bring the car back into line.



    IMO that would be "trail braking" into the apex to help steer the rear around for the exit so as not to plow. I have also read comments in a recent mag test of having to trail brake with RS6 so as not to plow.

    Re: audi

    Quote:
    AMGeater said:
    Wow it seems like there comes a point where you have to "get into it" with everyone here at some point or another.

    ...

    And "W8MM" I do remember that the car had a 4.2 liter V-8? And it looked an awful lot like the new A4??? Hmm maybe it was a B6??? And the spec was, as far as I can remember, was U.S???




    I thought there might be a difference between the cars you drove and the ones with which I am familiar. No hard feelings

    Re: audi

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    Quote:
    AMGeater said:
    Wow it seems like there comes a point where you have to "get into it" with everyone here at some point or another.



    ... If you are unwilling to drive different cars in different ways, you will never extract the most performance out of them. Even the lines you take in a 996 vs. M3 may differ.





    I think Justin is on to something here.

    Each of us brings their driving history and habits with us when we drive cars and react to them. We each value many of the same desireable traits, but we can easily differ on which traits of handling are of primary importance, and thus which traits carry the day for us.

    I guess that AMGeater has a different priority system than I do for valuing different ascpects of steering and handling. The reason that I mentioned the Car and Driver test was that AMGeater seemed to be dismissing, out of hand, the comment I made about the differences I observed in my wife's two cars.

    The author that wrote the C and D review surprised his early-career Skip Barber coaches by not only being the fastest of his cohorts on corner exit speeds but simultaneously being fastest on entry velocity as well. They'd never seen it before. His input is yet another take on what he values in vehicle handling.

    I guess we're all a little different.

    Re: audi

    If you think that Car and Driver is biased, then you must not know that they have always raved about the M3. To me it sounds like they were in fact "brutaly honest." Please do not judge Americans like that. We love to take a car to its absolute limit just as much as the Europeans do. There are many challenging roads and RACE TRACKS in America. Just because all you hear about is nascar, does not mean that there are no true enthusiasts here.

    There is a racetrack about 2 miles from my house that is quite challenging.
    http://www.grattanraceway.com/


    Gingerman Raceway is about an hour south of me:


    These are 2 of the tracks that I know Car and Driver has tested on, not to mention the Ford proving grounds in detroit.

    Re: audi

    Quote:
    ozglxvr6 said:
    Please do not judge Americans like that. We love to take a car to its absolute limit just as much as the Europeans do.



    Excuse me, but whoever said that Im not an American? Don't assume what you don't know.

    Re: audi

    My apologies.

    Please Lighten Up, AMGeater

    Quote:
    AMGeater said:
    Excuse me, but whoever said that Im not an American? Don't assume what you don't know.



    Well, AMGeater, your own words might lead him on:

    Quote:
    AMGeater said:#1, sorry to say but the guys at C&D are numb nuts. I never read American car publications, they suck. Perioid. I read CAR, Autocar, a little of what I can understand in Auto Motor und Sport. Why do I read them? Why do you think they're better than the Americans? 1st, they are not mesmorized by the cars that they drive, they drive the cars they test to their true absolute limit(Americans can only dream doing that). Not to mention they push cars on some of the most challenging roads and RACE TRACKS in the world to explore just how much these cars can handle.



    Besides, your board-user information is quite mysteriously sparse. You've intentionally tried to be anonymous to the point where I had to ask you where you lived in order to try to understand your viewpoint on this thread.

    Jumping on someone who thought you were not an American is misplaced, IMHO.

    Excuse me, perhaps you should apologize to him for being so vague about yourself, and leading him to false conclusions.

    Re: Please Lighten Up, AMGeater

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    AMGeater said:
    Excuse me, but whoever said that Im not an American? Don't assume what you don't know.



    Well, AMGeater, your own words might lead him on:

    Quote:
    AMGeater said:#1, sorry to say but the guys at C&D are numb nuts. I never read American car publications, they suck. Perioid. I read CAR, Autocar, a little of what I can understand in Auto Motor und Sport. Why do I read them? Why do you think they're better than the Americans? 1st, they are not mesmorized by the cars that they drive, they drive the cars they test to their true absolute limit(Americans can only dream doing that). Not to mention they push cars on some of the most challenging roads and RACE TRACKS in the world to explore just how much these cars can handle.



    Besides, your board-user information is quite mysteriously sparse. You've intentionally tried to be anonymous to the point where I had to ask you where you lived in order to try to understand your viewpoint on this thread.

    Jumping on someone who thought you were not an American is misplaced, IMHO.

    Excuse me, perhaps you should apologize to him for being so vague about yourself, and leading him to false conclusions.

    Quote:




    It seems like your'e trying to insite something??????????

    Anyway I don't owe YOU or ANYONE ELSE an explanation about myself, where I live, ANYTHING. Not only that, but if you have read any of my post in the past I have told people where Im from. I come here to talk about cars, not to make freinds. If people don't like what I say, then tough, dont respond.

    You seem like you hold a real grudge especially by stepping in on something that doesn't involve you. If I think European car magazines are better than American magazines then TOUGH. Get over it. Your'e reading to much into what I say. Why do you care so much anyway???????????????????? That is unless your'e on some type of misssion?????????????????

    "Leading someone to false conclusions", you really need to take a step off of your'e pedestal. If someone chooses to make an ASSUMPTION(I take it that you don't know what that means judging by your'e response) that is their problem not mine. I may choose to correct them in the hope that they will think twice about prejudging someone else in the future. I owe no one an apology. Im afraid you do.

    Re: Please Lighten Up, AMGeater

    A bit edgy lately aren't we? chill out AMGeater

    Re: Please Lighten Up, AMGeater

    Quote:
    AMGeater said:
    #1, sorry to say but the guys at C&D are numb nuts. I never read American car publications, they suck.
    .......

    It seems like your'e trying to insite something??????????

    .......

    I come here to talk about cars, not to make freinds. If people don't like what I say, then tough, dont respond.




    If you want to flame someone's friends or acquaintances, you better be wearing asbestos pants

    I know dozens of American car magazine writers and staff and your comments were just plain insulting. Maybe you shouldn't presume too much yourself.

    Re: Please Lighten Up, AMGeater

    Damm, you just don't know when to quit, so little do you know. Fot your'e info I know quite a few journalist as well, there are a few, and insist only a few, American publications that I care for.

    Quote:
    If you want to flame someone's friends or acquaintances, you better be wearing asbestos pants



    Oh my W8MM im trembling with fear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I think I am going to shut up now before I say something that will get me banned from this forum. I know you wish I would say something since you have so much pent up aggresion towards me. I think from now on you should AVOID posting any followups to ANY of my posts PERIOD.

    Re: Please Lighten Up, AMGeater

    Quote:
    AMGeater said:
    Damm, you just don't know when to quit, so little do you know.

    ...................

    I think I am going to shut up now before I say something that will get me banned from this forum. I know you wish I would say something since you have so much pent up aggresion towards me. I think from now on you should AVOID posting any followups to ANY of my posts PERIOD.



    I can see why you said you didn't come here to make any friends

    I've posted comments of agreement to some of your other threads, so I don't really see what has you all worked up. All I expect is some civility of discourse.

    If you can restrain yourself from making sarcastic, blanket condemnations of others' posts, I'd be happy to correspond with you more, and plan for us both to enjoy it.

    Cheers and best regards

    Re: Please Lighten Up, AMGeater

    AMGeater,
    By chance do you use a V1 radar detector, or are you more of an Escort 8500 kind of guy?

    Fritz,
    More irony.

    - J

    PS: I have noticed that this board has been plagued by negative argument recently. Is it impossible to act in a civil fashion?

    Re: Please Lighten Up, AMGeater

    I wouldn't have reacted in this manner if I didn't feel like I was being attacked your posts. By nature, believe it or not I can be quite a sarcastic person, but the people who know me know that it's just me and Im not being sarcastic to spite anyone.

    Just the same I come here and it seems like Im dodging verbal bullets left and right. The irony in all of this is that I notice that every new member I have seen on this board has gotten some kind of greeting for joining the Renneteam forum. I recieved none of that, maybe that was the real red flag that I failed to see. I also know that if i was placed physically in an enviorment with all of you, say at a meet, I probably would be an outsider. Just like I am here.

    Re: Please Lighten Up, AMGeater

    Neither, I don't use radar dectors. Don't really need one.

    Quote:
    PS: I have noticed that this board has been plagued by negative argument recently. Is it impossible to act in a civil fashion?



    It's funny you say that, have you checked some of your'e posts lately??? While you can candy coat your'e posts with sugar and sweets, Im not dumb, and can see some of the implications you are making. So maybe some of us should stop trying to incite things and figure out how we can work more on bettering ourselves than ostracizing others. I think there are two people here doing a tag team? Wrong forum.

    Please Cheer Up, AMGeater

    Quote:
    AMGeater said:
    I wouldn't have reacted in this manner if I didn't feel like I was being attacked your posts.

    .......

    I also know that if i was placed physically in an enviorment with all of you, say at a meet, I probably would be an outsider. Just like I am here.



    Your passion for cars is quite evident, and I think you will find the general group here to be quite welcoming. No need to feel like an outsider, unless you would prefer it that way.

    Your comments sometimes come across as abrasive, but you seem not to realize it. A mild dose of cheer mixed into your posts when you disagree with someone will be all the salve you need to be popular here.

    If it seems OK, you might even make some friends

    Re: Please Lighten Up, AMGeater

    It is not our intention to alienate you or anyone else on this forum and I sincerely mean that. We simply wish to make the distinction between respectful disagreement and rudeness.

    Re: Please Cheer Up, AMGeater

    Quote:
    No need to feel like an outsider, unless you would prefer it that way.



    Who does want to be an outsider????

    Quote:
    Your comments sometimes come across as abrasive



    Realize that never do I intentionally go out of my way to maliciously attack others, Im just saying something that I feel might get someone to think a tad bit more(maybe they aren't seeing the big picture). Or maybe Im just tired of hearing some of the same things over and over. I'd like to think of myself as a nice guy, but I will keep in mind that some of my sarcasm may offend others.

    Now back to cars please.............

    Re: audi

    Exactly Carlos.

     
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