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    Manual vs Auto

    Just been for a test drive in a manual 997S back to back with an auto C4S to help me make my mind up about which gearbox to go on my 997S order.

    Before the drive I was 99% sure I wanted a manual but I was so impressed by the auto's kickdown speed that I am now 50 50.

    Auto impressions:
    1. Kick down speed very quick
    2. Box seems reluctant to drop a gear unless you floor it.
    3. Manual mode was easy to use - but do people bother ?

    Manual impressions:
    1. First gear was notchy
    2. Smooth changes
    3. Long travel on clutch

    On paper the performance of the auto box is quite a bit less, eroding the performance advantage of the 997S over the standard 997. However, when you aren't sure what speed you are going and want to select the optimum gear for a burst of acceleration, the auto knows exactly which gear is optimum for maximum acceleration whereas with a manual you will have to make a best guess.

    Any regrets from members who have gone for auto ?

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    A common criticism of the tiptronic tranny is that it likes to slip into "granny" mode, where it is looking more at fuel economy, than keeping the revs up and the engine in the power band.

    The new 997 tip seems much better adjusted, and will hold onto a gear much longer than the previous generation. In chrono sport mode, the difference is even more extreme (even to the extent that you find yourself sometimes doing a manual upshift while in auto-mode because the box reuses to change up). Downshifts under kick-down happen much faster than before also.

    I find with my car, even in normal (non-sport) mode that it will change down even with the slightest throttle blip. This is quite unlike the behaviour of my old Boxster Tip where you needed to prod the accelerator much harder to produce a kickdown effect. I used the manual override buttons much more in that car than I've needed to so far in the 997S.

    I ordered a tip because of a back problem, but even without that reason, I'd be tempted, especially with the traffic situation in London and the UK in general. I feel I want a manual, but given the way I use my car (and where I drive it), the tip makes more sense for me. People will always flame you (especially in this forum) for buying an automatic Porsche. If you decide to do it - just ignore them, they're narrow minded.

    Gary

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Quote:
    Gaz said:
    A common criticism of the tiptronic tranny is that it likes to slip into "granny" mode, where it is looking more at fuel economy, than keeping the revs up and the engine in the power band.

    The new 997 tip seems much better adjusted, and will hold onto a gear much longer than the previous generation. In chrono sport mode, the difference is even more extreme (even to the extent that you find yourself sometimes doing a manual upshift while in auto-mode because the box reuses to change up). Downshifts under kick-down happen much faster than before also.

    I find with my car, even in normal (non-sport) mode that it will change down even with the slightest throttle blip. This is quite unlike the behaviour of my old Boxster Tip where you needed to prod the accelerator much harder to produce a kickdown effect. I used the manual override buttons much more in that car than I've needed to so far in the 997S.

    I ordered a tip because of a back problem, but even without that reason, I'd be tempted, especially with the traffic situation in London and the UK in general. I feel I want a manual, but given the way I use my car (and where I drive it), the tip makes more sense for me. People will always flame you (especially in this forum) for buying an automatic Porsche. If you decide to do it - just ignore them, they're narrow minded.

    Gary



    You will certainly not be flamed by me!
    I would chose manual but it's all down to personal choices. And I respect them.
    As Gaz said, I heard too that the 997 Tip system is much better than the 996 one, especially with Sport chrono engaged, which brings me to this advice.
    If you take Tip, make sure you take also Sport chrono (it's not ridiculously expensive I think).
    Tip is great in cities, with the new gen. almost as good as F1 gearbox in spirited driving and much much better in full auto mode.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    LOL - I'm now 60 40 in favour of auto

    thanks

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    FWIW, I went from 10 years in a manual E36 M3 and then a E39 M5. The I switched to a Cayenne TT which has a Tip. After about 6 months, I missed my manual so much that I purchased a 6 speed manual Acura TL as a daily driver. Now, I am lucky enough to own a 997S manual. For me, driving a tip everyday for 6 months (even in the Cayenne TT) made me long for a manual that much more. There is something so satisfying about a perfectly rev matched downshift...

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    OK, back to 50 50 now - I really dont know which way to go !!!

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    I have the Tip on my 997 and have only limited experience with it thus far but have been impressed by it. I had read a lot of negative things about Posrche's Tiptronic box but thus far the all seem to be nonsense to me.

    I agree with Gaz's sentiments on UK driving and would not want a manual gearbox for 95% of my time behind the wheel due to traffic congestion and motorway driving. Yes manual boxes are fun and yes you feel more involved but if this accounts for a very small percentage of your driving time do you really want a manual box? It all depends on how and where you will use your car. For me the Tip box is excellent.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Here's a definitive answer. Read review of Tiptronic in this month's Excellence (magazine for Porsche enthusiasts).

    They did not like the Tip on the 997 they test drove expressly to evaluate the Tiptronic. They tried to like it. The only reason for getting a Tip on a 911 (IMHO) is your wife expects to drive it.

    They said it removes feedback from the feedback-rich car and dulls the experience of driving it. They summed it up by saying THIS iteration of the 911 is so fantastic according to them, that a tip would be a sorry thing to do to it.

    Don't do it, unless you have to compromise the car. I'm just paraphrasing what I read. I don't mean to upset anybody who has one already.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    It's a Porsche...go with the manual!

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    I've been driving stickshifts my entire life, being in the right gear at the right time is 100% intuitive to me. You don't "think" about it, your body just flows on instinct, you just do it. I don't have any flaming to do, it's purely a personal choice. My only comment is that the 911 Porsche has historically been one of the most "fun" drives on the planet. Whenever I drive a Tip 911 (I've piloted a few), it feels like an enigma car to me. It's like being a baseball player, and loving to play the ENTIRE game, but your coach puts in a pinch hitter for you because he doesn't think you can hit worth a damn, so you sit on the bench and sulk when it's time to hit, wishing you could be out there swinging away and having fun...


    But that's my take, because I love the interaction and the art of shifting myself in a sporting car.

    You either enjoy shifting, or you don't, or you can't (injury, handicap, etc.)

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Quote:
    They said it removes feedback from the feedback-rich car and dulls the experience of driving it. They summed it up by saying THIS iteration of the 911 is so fantastic according to them, that a tip would be a sorry thing to do to it.

    That sums up my sentiment to a "T". Don't get me started on the "if the wife drives it" nonsense. Take the measely half hour out of your life, and teach her to drive a stick for goodness sake!!!

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    TAKE THE MANUAL, otherwisw save your money and go with the base 997.

    Unless you dont like to change gears. If this is your daily car and there is a traffic jam buy a small cheaper car for the traffic jam and order your 997S manual. This is an everyday car BUT you should not specced it for the traffic jam but for the fun of driving! Bacause if you fall in this category then you should also try to go with 17 inch wheels !!!! just to be more confortable during the traffic jam.

    But again that just my opinion.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Pink Panther,

    It all depends on how much do you enjoy manual driving and on what type driving you do. For some, they enjoy so much operating the clucth and working the stick manually that even if they can only enjoy it a small percentage of the time due traffic, etc. its still worth it for them for those moments, others can enjoy it most of the time and its an essential part of the ivolvement and driving experience of a asportcar and couldn't have it any other way (thats my case), others have a second sportcar that is a manual to be able to enjoy a manual when appropriate and get the Tip for city communting or other uses, others don't care much for manual shifting and its not an important part of the sportcar driving experience and get the Tip no matter what conditions they use the car for, others get the Tip because they have to share the car with other people like a spouse or for back problems, etc., others would get an auto if it were a sequential but don't like torque converters automatics after trying a SMG or DSG,...

    So in the end its a very personal choice only you can answer, you have to ask yourself... for the use I'm going to give this car will the Tip be an significant advantage? how important is the thrird pedal in my driving experience? and then balance those two out.

    For me, and this is just my case, the manual is an important part of the driving experience, it makes driving the 911 more involving, more challenging, more "conneted" to the car, and more satisfying. Reducing the shifting process to a mere push of a button or flip of a paddle has its advantages but reduces all that experience, like if the steering wheel was changed to a joystick. Its like making the steering much lighter for confort, then the loss of directness, sensibility and conection to the car works in detriment to the sporty driving experience. Or like using neumatic suspensions or silencing the exhaust and engine sounds.

    Sportcars are getting more and more decafinated as years go by so the only situation on which I may agree to is when its a significant safety advantage like electronic stability systems for example. Even if the auto can be a performance advantage in some situations like a Tip on a average driver with lots of HP like 996TT which doesn't feel as much the power loss of the tip but allows the driver to control better the HP, or a sequential tranny at the track, but still the most important reason for me is the fun and pleasure I derive for the experience and for that there is nothing like a manual for me. That global experience I value is why I drive a 911 everyday. But this is subjective and there is no right or wrong, just depends on your situation and impressions.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    The tiptronic is pretty bogus IMHO. It costs a lot to buy and even more to replace when it breaks. It adds useless poundage, makes the handling goofy and generally kills off a huge chunk of fun with the car.

    If you must have a car with a automatic gearbox because of where and how you drive, perhaps a rethink of getting a 997 to drive on a daily basis is in order. You may be better off considering a 500SL.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    The fact that Porsche is developing a DSG type transmission speaks volumes as to what they think of the Tip.I am a hugh fan of the F1 type tranny and order my Ferrari's with F1. My Cayenne Tip sucks and would never order a car with it. I cannot speak to the updated version of the Tip in the 997 but it can't be all that great if Porsche is going to dump it in the near future.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    I agree Nick, the DSG has all the advantages of the Tip and more, and looses some of its disadvantages as well:

    - The Tip (hydrallic torque converter automatic) is much heavier than a manual tranny. The DSG should be roughly the same weight as the manual.

    - The Tip robs some torque from the engine during the shifts, the DSG doesn't.

    - The Tip is slower in shifting than a DSG which is 10x faster in upshifting than the BMW-SMG's sequential and even more so than the Ferrari F1. There is practically no interruption of power in the DSG unlike any other box due to the double clucth.

    - The Tip only has 5 gears, while 6 gears are superior performancewise, the DSG can have 6 gears or even 7.

    - All these things combined causes slower acceleration times than the manual, the DSG is faster than the Tip but can even actually be faster than the manual in acceleration.

    - And lastly the DSG should be cheaper to build for Porsche than the torque converter Tip hence saving production costs.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Thanks all for the excellent advice - I'm going to sleep on it.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The fact that Porsche is developing a DSG type transmission speaks volumes as to what they think of the Tip.I am a hugh fan of the F1 type tranny and order my Ferrari's with F1. My Cayenne Tip sucks and would never order a car with it. I cannot speak to the updated version of the Tip in the 997 but it can't be all that great if Porsche is going to dump it in the near future.



    I love nberry facts.

    Im sure your Cayenne Tip is awful, all of the Japanese automatics have dreadful response and just because they are now wedged into Porsches didn't improve the breed.

    DSG gearboxs are rotten, overpriced and are perfect for low mileage drivers. Its basically a manual gearbox with computer controlled electro hydraulic actuators for each gear that move the bits for you. They also use small twin clutch discs and wear can be rapid when used as intended with computer aided lightening up and down shifts. Joy! when the clutch discs wear you get to pay to replace TWO of them instead of ONE. They also have a odd reluctance to engage reverse uphill, maybe Nberry can speak to that, but I think its ridiculous to pay more needlessly and end up with less driveability and likelyhood of greater expense.

    If you have a left foot, use it. Its not that difficult really.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    If I had a tip I would use it always in manual mode - the exception being stop-and-go heavy traffic.

    Allow me... to say that a tip should be used in auto and "why bother for manual mode?" -- well, are you sure you want a Porsche?

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    I know this will ruffle some feathers, but in the end, isn't this the HONEST answer?:

    With the exception of the injured or handicapped, isn't it more a matter of asking yourself "how lazy am I when driving?", and then picking a tranny? Not that there's anything wrong with either choice, but it seems as though this discussion about traffic, and pushing a clutch, and swinging a shifter, all comes down to the differences between those of us who don't even give it a moment's notice when we're plodding along in traffic, and others who consider it work when they're stuck in traffic?

    Just be honest with yourself, don't try to be a hero and order a manual out of peer pressure. And please don't take the "lazy" comment as an insult, because there are areas in my life where I'd rather let something else do the work for me as well!! Driving, however, is not one of those areas...unless I'm driving something that's a barge anyhow (like my truck), in which case, the sucker may as well shift itself.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I know this will ruffle some feathers, but in the end, isn't this the HONEST answer?:

    With the exception of the injured or handicapped, isn't it more a matter of asking yourself "how lazy am I when driving?", and then picking a tranny? Not that there's anything wrong with either choice, but it seems as though this discussion about traffic, and pushing a clutch, and swinging a shifter, all comes down to the differences between those of us who don't even give it a moment's notice when we're plodding along in traffic, and others who consider it work when they're stuck in traffic?

    Just be honest with yourself, don't try to be a hero and order a manual out of peer pressure. And please don't take the "lazy" comment as an insult, because there are areas in my life where I'd rather let something else do the work for me as well!! Driving, however, is not one of those areas...unless I'm driving something that's a barge anyhow (like my truck), in which case, the sucker may as well shift itself.



    That is all beyond the point IMHO.
    Not you 69boss, but the whole flaming auto box drivers before that.

    Adias, of course, Pink Panther wants a Porsche.

    Some people don't necessarily want to bother with a manual box, some people are not really into driving in a sporty way.
    I'd go manual everytime, but you have to respect everyone.

    Last year, the biggest 911 seller was the 996 Carrera 4S cab tiptro.
    So what?

    These guys are more after the shape, the beauty, the noise, the name, the status, etc. etc. etc.
    For what it's worth, rare are the drivers that exploit 100% of their cars.
    I am thankful that we have the choice, the more models, the better.

    I read than more than 50% of US Porsches are tiptro, does that make them bad drivers, no. Lazy, no. To each his own.

    But in the end, I also agree with Nberry, DSG will be vastly superior I think.
    But again, it doesn't mean that auto is bad.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    I love nberry facts.
    If you have a left foot, use it. Its not that difficult really.



    You don't need to tell Nick that. He puts his left foot in his mouth all the time.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The fact that Porsche is developing a DSG type transmission speaks volumes as to what they think of the Tip.I am a hugh fan of the F1 type tranny and order my Ferrari's with F1. My Cayenne Tip sucks and would never order a car with it. I cannot speak to the updated version of the Tip in the 997 but it can't be all that great if Porsche is going to dump it in the near future.



    I love nberry facts.

    Im sure your Cayenne Tip is awful, all of the Japanese automatics have dreadful response and just because they are now wedged into Porsches didn't improve the breed.

    DSG gearboxs are rotten, overpriced and are perfect for low mileage drivers. Its basically a manual gearbox with computer controlled electro hydraulic actuators for each gear that move the bits for you. They also use small twin clutch discs and wear can be rapid when used as intended with computer aided lightening up and down shifts. Joy! when the clutch discs wear you get to pay to replace TWO of them instead of ONE. They also have a odd reluctance to engage reverse uphill, maybe Nberry can speak to that, but I think its ridiculous to pay more needlessly and end up with less driveability and likelyhood of greater expense.

    If you have a left foot, use it. Its not that difficult really.


    Fact; you should not be in reverse going up hill with a F1 tranny NOR a manual.


    Fact; Porsche is a performance car.

    Fact; 99.9% of drivers will be faster in performance using a F1 type tranny on any road and under any circumstance compared to a manual.

    Fact; manual transmissions are archaic and only used by people who are more interested in exercising all their limbs and not driving performance.

    Fact; once Porsche fully develops a F1 type tranny all the dinosaurs who now own manual will embrace the new technology by claiming they knew all along this was the only way to go but were waiting for it to be perfected.


    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The fact that Porsche is developing a DSG type transmission speaks volumes as to what they think of the Tip.I am a hugh fan of the F1 type tranny and order my Ferrari's with F1. My Cayenne Tip sucks and would never order a car with it. I cannot speak to the updated version of the Tip in the 997 but it can't be all that great if Porsche is going to dump it in the near future.



    I love nberry facts.

    Im sure your Cayenne Tip is awful, all of the Japanese automatics have dreadful response and just because they are now wedged into Porsches didn't improve the breed.

    DSG gearboxs are rotten, overpriced and are perfect for low mileage drivers. Its basically a manual gearbox with computer controlled electro hydraulic actuators for each gear that move the bits for you. They also use small twin clutch discs and wear can be rapid when used as intended with computer aided lightening up and down shifts. Joy! when the clutch discs wear you get to pay to replace TWO of them instead of ONE. They also have a odd reluctance to engage reverse uphill, maybe Nberry can speak to that, but I think its ridiculous to pay more needlessly and end up with less driveability and likelyhood of greater expense.

    If you have a left foot, use it. Its not that difficult really.


    Fact; you should not be in reverse going up hill with a F1 tranny NOR a manual.


    Fact; Porsche is a performance car.

    Fact; 99.9% of drivers will be faster in performance using a F1 type tranny on any road and under any circumstance compared to a manual.

    Fact; manual transmissions are archaic and only used by people who are more interested in exercising all their limbs and not driving performance.

    Fact; once Porsche fully develops a F1 type tranny all the dinosaurs who now own manual will embrace the new technology by claiming they knew all along this was the only way to go but were waiting for it to be perfected.





    I'm not too sure about your last fact Nick.
    Look in the UK, 50% of 360 sold there were Manual box.
    It's not all about the performance man.
    some people just like old school driving.
    Again, let's be grateful we have the choice.
    I now the Porsche DSG will most certainly better than manual, but I can see myself sticking with manual for a while

    You're a great guy and I really appreciate your posts man, but sometimes I can't help thinking that you can also be awfully narrow minded.

    Sorry, don't mean to offend, sincerely, but I feel it's really whinning for the sake of whinning.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Fact; you should not be in reverse going up hill with a F1 tranny NOR a manual.




    ??? Says who? In SF or any other city, how would you parallel park into a space that's on a hill?

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Fact; once Porsche fully develops a F1 type tranny all the dinosaurs who now own manual will embrace the new technology by claiming they knew all along this was the only way to go but were waiting for it to be perfected.




    DAMN! I finally find myself agreeing with something that Nick said!

    I also think that a fully developed F1-type transmission will be the way to go, when somebody finally gets around to perfecting it.

    I'm just surprised that Nick also seems to think that it'll take Porsche to do that job!

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Fanch why are my post whinning and everyone else factual?

    I am opinionated because I am confident of what I think. Regarding those that drive manuals, I have no doubt once Porsche tells them the next and greatest thing is a DSG type tranny you all will jump on the bad wagon.

    Also, if you truly enjoy using your car as close as to its full potential while YOU drive it, there is only one choice DSG type tranny.

    BTW I am never offended because I am self-assured.

    Jeff, you know what I mean regarding making it a practice to engage reverse while going up hill.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    Darn, nick, I was with you until you posted fictions as facts



    Quote:
    Fact; you should not be in reverse going up hill with a F1 tranny NOR a manual.



    With a F1 yes, and its your choice to buy it but NOT with a manual! So what have people done in their manual cars (not only Porsches) all their lives when they park their car in a downhill, or back out of a garage that has an up hill, etc?

    Quote:
    Fact; Porsche is a performance car.



    True, so? see bellow.

    Quote:
    Fact; 99.9% of drivers will be faster in performance using a F1 type tranny on any road and under any circumstance compared to a manual.



    How much faster is that? you think you can leave another driver behind on the street just because he is on a manual? but I will tell you what is significantly percievable, and that is enhanced pleasure and experience he is getting (if you enjoy manuals that is) vs playstation mode driving. That argument is only valid for racecars not street cars.

    Quote:
    Fact; manual transmissions are archaic and only used by people who are more interested in exercising all their limbs and not driving performance.



    They are as archaic as many other solutions that are found in your car for example, are electronic suspensions better because the traditional spring/shock are just as archaid as well? You can make believe yourself the reason drivers drive manuals to exercise their limbs if it makes youself feel better about it, but in that case you are missing out on something that is great fun and satisfying.

    Quote:
    Fact; once Porsche fully develops a F1 type tranny all the dinosaurs who now own manual will embrace the new technology by claiming they knew all along this was the only way to go but were waiting for it to be perfected.



    Wrong, you miss the point of the manual then, or you are just trying to justify yourself to feel better about it. Whats next, sportbikes are getting auto trannies as well?



    Nick, there is no black and white better tranny, it depends on your situation, needs, and preferences. You have to understand for many sportcar drivers the manual shifting and managing the clutch is something that can't be bypassed or substituted, like you can't take out the braking, throttle or steering by the driver out of the sportdriving experience.

    Re: Manual vs Auto

    apart driving feelengs, all respectables but i can't conceive arriving a corner pushing a button without hear the double clutching motor noise, of course done for me; sure the most of people run faster with a auto tranny, but what about personal improving technical of driving?i like a lot excersice my limbs.......
    the day that the cars run auto drived will come, sure most of people run faster with them................ and driving experience?
    i'm sure manual box will be faster than dsg, don't be cheat by engage times, there are more facts that influence on total change performance; rod change is the most fast, direct, sensitive and simple system to change; don't break down, ít's simple, don't have manteinance and is cheap; nevertheless is not neccesary run to the limit to enjoy yourself............someone explain me in this case where is the joy pushing a button.
    could i be a dinosaur???????????
    market lead us to consume things that we don't need making us think that are better and sofisticated, collecting our money, of course.
    manual tranny: always faster and enjoyable, till the jurasic to the XXI.

    greets

    Re: Manual vs Auto on it :)

    You can take all of these F1, Steptronic, Tiptronic, Manumatic etc., dainty, hopelessly effete poseur gearbox's
    and dump them into the sea for all I care.

    The problem is really the motors they are attached to. Basically they are just too weak and puny to work right with a decent automatic transmission.

    There hase been only one sports car and one sedan that had engines truly suitable for a automatic transmissions, and that was the Chapparal 2J and the Oldsmobile 442 W30.

     
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