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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    DaveGordon:

    ooh, i'm liking the 570..  interesting.. 

    I didn't like it at first but over the week I saw some videos on youtube of a test drive in a red car with contrasting black and diamond cut wheels, and that looked pretty awesome. Also the overlaying and "floating" body panels that weren't so apparent in the initial release look very good. On some of the review videos I've seen online they point that out and those make the surface of the car very interesting. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    It's hard to beat the benefits that are provided by the carbon tub design.

    Chassis rigidity and therefore being able to tune the compliant suspension, safety, lightness, etc.

    Yes, I am going to rant again about the missing 960, but VW management should wake up and Porsche should offer a carbon tub mid-engine sports car yesterday already!


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I agree that a 960-type car is overdue. The only way to see this car is if/when  VW evaluate that they could make more profit out of a Porsche 960 than from an Audi R8.

    On the matter of the carbon-tub, I don't think this feature on its own gives a clear advantage.

    For example starting from more basic cars the Cayman/Boxster are the best handling in their class even though the Alfa 4C has a CF-tub.

    The superb 488 Ferrari has a spaceframe chassis but I don't think it will be tested and found wanting compared to the McLarens.

    The Aventador has a hybrid chassis but around NBR it is as fast as the 918 with its sophisticated carbon-tub.

    Others things being equal the CF-tub might be beneficial but I don't think that as a solitary feature it necessarily makes all the difference.

     


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    McLaren's carbon monocell is already priceless! You really have to drive it to know how direct and stiff of the chasis when u drive in twisty roads.... and most importantly, is its safty!  money can buy! 

    911 is more settle, surely the market now these days are more acceptable to more exotic cars.... especially when you spend that kind of money, u want to feel special, not just next to a guy with regular 911 when u have 911tts and sounds muted and doubled the price. what I am saying is that its ok for market as 911, 911s, 4s or gts for porsche as sports car.  However, if u are spending the money as TTS, u wanted to feel special, not just another 911.

    I suppose for those who are soo against McLaren should actually go drive 570S or the current 650S, then you will notice the differences.  I had 991TTS and currently 650S, and the differences are just incomparable... re-sale figures are really pointless to discuss if its a great product. if people spend these kinds of money, i am sure re-sale figures are less important when buying into this segment.  these exotics depreciate similary....  

    and stop talking about those two back seats!!!  those are pointless!!  my kids is 5 and hated to get in the back!!  if i am taking the kids somewhere, I have other cars!!!  I am sure those has these exotics has other cars.....  back seats are jokes!!! I rather them take the seat off so I can put luggages there....  

     

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    huangester:

    McLaren's carbon monocell is already priceless! You really have to drive it to know how direct and stiff of the chasis when u drive in twisty roads.... and most importantly, is its safty!  money can buy! 

    The track performance doesn't really prove this advantage.

    911 is more settle, surely the market now these days are more acceptable to more exotic cars.... especially when you spend that kind of money, u want to feel special, not just next to a guy with regular 911 when u have 911tts and sounds muted and doubled the price. what I am saying is that its ok for market as 911, 911s, 4s or gts for porsche as sports car.  However, if u are spending the money as TTS, u wanted to feel special, not just another 911.

    The 911 advantage is a more subtle look, many just don't seem to realize it. I would say that at least 50% of 911 sales in Germany would vanish if the 911 would look more exotic. Not so sure about other countries but especially in Europe, the 911 is highly respected as a business car, similar to BMW 7 series or Mercedes S class.

    I suppose for those who are soo against McLaren should actually go drive 570S or the current 650S, then you will notice the differences.  I had 991TTS and currently 650S, and the differences are just incomparable... re-sale figures are really pointless to discuss if its a great product. if people spend these kinds of money, i am sure re-sale figures are less important when buying into this segment.  these exotics depreciate similary....  

    Comparing a 991 Turbo S to a 650S with 90 hp more is pointless. Give the 991 Turbo S 90 factory horses more (not talking about tuners) and it would drive circles around the 650S. Smiley The chassis of the 991 Turbo S is amazing and if Porsche would forget about comfort and normal use, incl. winter time (ride height), the chassis of the 991 Turbo S could be tuned to a point where the competition would be shocked. The 991 Turbo S is however, a perfect daily driver. 

    Btw: I am not against McLaren at all, you misunderstand me. I like the brand, I just think their prices are too high, especially for their entry level models.

    and stop talking about those two back seats!!!  those are pointless!!  my kids is 5 and hated to get in the back!!  if i am taking the kids somewhere, I have other cars!!!  I am sure those has these exotics has other cars.....  back seats are jokes!!! I rather them take the seat off so I can put luggages there....  

    These pointless seats moved around my small kids for years. Just last Saturday, I drove to Munich with my daughter and my wife in my 991 GTS Cab because it was sunny (not really warm though) and we wanted to enjoy some "open time". Without the rear seats, one person had to stay at home or we would have needed to take a different car, not a cabriolet. So stop talking about not having the back seats because this is one of the reasons I actually have a 911. 

    Your kid at 5 hated to go in the back because he wanted to be with his dad in the front seat. Smiley My kids always fought about who is going to sit in the front but in the end, they always exchanged seats.

    McLaren cannot beat a 991 Turbo S in Germany (or Europe for that matter) unless they offer four seats and a daily driver capability or a lower price. This is my personal opinion of course, I may be wrong but I would never consider buying a McLaren because it is too expensive for a weekend toy and not practical enough for a daily driver.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Just to throw it out there; it's a common misconception that the 911 Turbo is so successful. Yearly sales figures, globally, are actually very low. Probably only a few thousand.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Just to throw it out there; it's a common misconception that the 911 Turbo is so successful. Yearly sales figures, globally, are actually very low. Probably only a few thousand.

    This is actually quite a success. Smiley The 911 Turbo is only a niche model of the 911 model line, maybe not as niche as the GT3 but almost.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Some people talk about it like it's selling 20K cars per year. The idea that McLaren can't beat the 911 Turbo in sales and demand is pretty absurd. If the 570S can move 2500 cars per year, which I think it definitely can at its price, then McLaren will in fact get pretty close to 911 Turbo sales.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Some people talk about it like it's selling 20K cars per year. The idea that McLaren can't beat the 911 Turbo in sales and demand is pretty absurd. If the 570S can move 2500 cars per year, which I think it definitely can at its price, then McLaren will in fact get pretty close to 911 Turbo sales.

    The idea is actually to establish McLaren as a sports car brand, even in markets which aren't too "fond" of McLaren. In Germany, McLaren has to compete with Porsche (or Ferrari for that matter), so it isn't easy for them.

    I would establish the brand and then I can play around with prices. So far, I haven't seen McLaren establish anything in Germany. Smiley The dealerships are small, almost minuscule for such a high performance brand and the lease offers were interesting lately (650S) but still not good enough to choose the car.

    McLaren lacks the image in Germany and this may be related to the fact that there aren't enough cars on the road over here, that simple.

    I don't have newer numbers but in 2013, only 77 cars were registered in Germany (only 22 to private owners).

    For comparison: Aston Martin sold 386 cars in Germany (110 private owners).

    Lamborghini: 134 cars (55 private owners).

    Ferrari: 652 cars (246 private owners).

     


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Some people talk about it like it's selling 20K cars per year. The idea that McLaren can't beat the 911 Turbo in sales and demand is pretty absurd. If the 570S can move 2500 cars per year, which I think it definitely can at its price, then McLaren will in fact get pretty close to 911 Turbo sales.

    I don't know about other countries but in Germany, definitely not. They would need to sell at least 400 cars a year to get even close to Turbo/S numbers. Of course the US and some Asian/Middle Eastern markets may be more important for McLaren but I think they need the German market to establish themselves as a brand. Unless they go the Lexus/Infinity route, two brands which are basically nonexistent in Germany but very well established in the US.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    McLaren doesn't really compete with Porsche directly, it's more or less the brand people go for when they can't get a Ferrari, they pretty much soaked up all the leftover customers from Ferrari. There are the occasional Porsche crossover customers, who wanted to try something new, I was one of those. But they do make a pretty damn good platform, and a lot of people who tried McLaren for the 1st time stayed with them.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Officially , Mc-Laren with the 570 is going after the R8 and the Turbo .

    I have no desire to own a mid engined Ferrari , but I have always been tempted by a Mac and have good memories of the extended test drive I had in the 12C .

    The joker face remains a problem ....

    The 570 does not appeal to me for the moment , only the 650/675


    --

     997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Gnil:

    Officially , Mc-Laren with the 570 is going after the R8 and the Turbo .

    I have no desire to own a mid engined Ferrari , but I have always been tempted by a Mac and have good memories of the extended test drive I had in the 12C .

    The joker face remains a problem ....

    The 570 does not appeal to me for the moment , only the 650/675

    I had interesting debate with my P source. 

    He said that R8 V10 Plus is the best alternative for 991.2 Turbo S, closely followed by new Honda NSX. NSX is in his opinion technical marvel and he really respect its technical achievements.

    When I asked about 570S he said no. And then I listen to almost 30mins long monologue why no. To resume his opinion: old tech engine (Ricardo design now almost 5 years old), no awd or lsd-so despite Mclaren claims car will have the worst traction in its class, narrow tires-225/285 combo is even with Crosas not enough for 50ps/600Nm, the slowest on the track in its class. Widest and with that doors the least practical car in its class. Playfull and alive in feel for tipical UK drive dynamics standards. But, not for Italian (read Ferraris) or German (read 991.2/R8) drive dynamics standards.

    Interesting enough he likes the design very much. 

    End verdict is if you like 570S drive dynamics you won't like 991.2, R8 or even 488 GTB drive dynamics. Mclaren did is deliberately to create something unique and more playfull. He said that 570S on Corsas is barely any faster on the Ring then Cayman GT4 on Cup2s. Despite huge power difference.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Gnil:

    Officially , Mc-Laren with the 570 is going after the R8 and the Turbo .

    I have no desire to own a mid engined Ferrari , but I have always been tempted by a Mac and have good memories of the extended test drive I had in the 12C .

    The joker face remains a problem ....

    The 570 does not appeal to me for the moment , only the 650/675

    Smiley Same here. Right now I could get a nice 650S for 205k with very low mileage directly from my local McLaren dealer but 205k is still way too much for a weekend toy. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    has ur source driven the 570S?  not many people had driven it, and most of the ones had driven it given good verdicts....  I must say McLaren does drives very different than any other cars, but in a very good way, as it is very percision car.  Ferrari is too soft (458), and fun but not quick enough, but I havn't try 488, GT4 had chance sitting in it, I am pretty sure its not faster than 650S on twisty roads, I am not sure about 570S.  old R8 S-tronic had it for few month, and it is a solid car, but again in a complete different league than 650S.   Never driven the new NSX.   for those of you should only judge the car once u had driven it.  otherwise the openions are just very personal...  I for one, never driven 570S, I am hoping I have chance to see what it is like....  but again, I don't wish to say anything before I had chance driven it......  


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    He is an engineer and works in development of P. He saw 570S prototyp and preproduction cars on the Ring and even knows fastest Ring time that Mclaren achieved with preproduction 570S. His first cousin works for Motorpresse and was at Portemao and driven 570S. 

    To repeat 570S is representation of modern British understanding of drive dynamics. That understanding of drive dynamics is very different from interpretation of Germans and Italians. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    He has a vested interest to talk down the McLaren...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    wantone:

    He has a vested interest to talk down the McLaren...

    I wouldn't really say that. Just compare the track performance of the 991 Turbo S and the 650S (not even the 570S, which is supposed to be the direct competitor). Keep in mind that McLaren doesn't build a daily driver.

    Like other car companies, Porsche engineers get to drive and test competitor products all the time. In the past, the car companies actually bought the cars but recently, I heard there is some sort of official "exchange" of cars. Not sure if this is true but without a doubt, they drive competitor products for comparison. It is part of development.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Kreso, interesting your P source criticizes the 5 year old Ricardo engine.... is not the Audi-Lambo V10 even older? But to me the key is your comment that McL have taken a chance, to build a more playful car at (for most of the non-German world) normal speeds.  They will take much flak for being slow on the Ring and blah blah.... But the actual owners may end up more pleased in the end. 


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S



    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Anyone read it? Someone quote the article saying 'For us, it's the McLaren. Every time.' Sounds like a good review.

    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1446500736.214178.jpg


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I watched a few reviews on YouTube and the 570S comes across as a real nice package. The design is great too!


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    So, definition of mid engine sports car with good drive dynamics is the car with 570ps, no lsd and tendency to oversteer at little bit above street legal speed? 

    Not to mention only 285mm rears and 225mm fronts for 570ps/600Nm car with rwd and no lsd. And to add that tendency to oversteer is pronounced even with Corsas.

    570S has the worst traction amoung its competitors.  And that "lively" characteristic makes it a huge favourite for UK based car press. 

    To add what my P source wrote:" someone who drives GT4 and knows it well will after few hot laps in GT4  will become very, very sweaty after same amount of hot laps in 570S and wonder where composure and traction have  gone?".


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Mclaren has a Event on Mallorca 1-2 December to drive the 570 - I am tempted


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    BjoernB:

    Mclaren has a Event on Mallorca 1-2 December to drive the 570 - I am tempted

    I am up for it Smiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    send you a PM with the Details indecision


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    bluelines:
    BjoernB:

    Mclaren has a Event on Mallorca 1-2 December to drive the 570 - I am tempted

    I am up for it Smiley

    tempting ......... Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    omg Kreso and all the McLaren haters here - first the 12C was too boring, too planted, not lively enough with tendency to understeer - now they make a car which is lively and tends a little bit more to oversteer and all you do is complaining to save your opinion about R8 and other products.

    Remember what you praised about the AMG GT-S ? Remember what you praised about the 991 Turbo S ? And in the end no cars that you praised are in your stable. Weird.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    hunterone:

    omg Kreso and all the McLaren haters here - first the 12C was too boring, too planted, not lively enough with tendency to understeer - now they make a car which is lively and tends a little bit more to oversteer and all you do is complaining to save your opinion about R8 and other products.

    Remember what you praised about the AMG GT-S ? Remember what you praised about the 991 Turbo S ? And in the end no cars that you praised are in your stable. Weird.

    You misunderstud me. 

    I like 570S. It is tuned to be more lively deliberately by Mclaren. Just, this tuning won't appeal to all sportscar fans. 

    And you are subjective, you know that. Neither am I.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    KresoF1:

    So, definition of mid engine sports car with good drive dynamics is the car with 570ps, no lsd and tendency to oversteer at little bit above street legal speed? 

    Not to mention only 285mm rears and 225mm fronts for 570ps/600Nm car with rwd and no lsd. And to add that tendency to oversteer is pronounced even with Corsas.

    570S has the worst traction amoung its competitors.  And that "lively" characteristic makes it a huge favourite for UK based car press. 

    To add what my P source wrote:" someone who drives GT4 and knows it well will after few hot laps in GT4  will become very, very sweaty after same amount of hot laps in 570S and wonder where composure and traction have  gone?".

     

    Exactly, this is the right formula for those looking for fun in a sports car, my Boxster and previous 996 were  more fun for going side ways than 997.2, the rear was always fitting and I loved that, 997.2 is to balanced and only when you switch off PSM the fun begins, I miss those cars , so not everyone is looking for precision and surgical handling, there are those like me who like to play with the beast on every corner at moderate speeds. Who cares if the GT4 is faster or handles better!


    --

    J.Seven

     

     


     
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