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    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    mawyatt said:
    Grant,

    Thanks for the explanation. BTW I have a 97 993 C2 as well and dealer was begging me to trade in on my 997 TT.


    No problem - enjoy the 993

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    mp said:
    The PCGT was another excellent example of Porsche's engineering capabilities and the future of its model development. Unfortunately, they priced it out of reach for most Porsche enthusiasts, it sold poorly and was just discontinued.



    Interesting post.

    Unfortunately, you just used up whatever credibility honeymoon is ordinarily extended to new posters.

    Your characterization (spin) of the CGT model history makes me think that Nick has a new screen name.

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    VKSF said: ... cars like SL55/997TT tend to have a 3yr product-cycle window of robust, 5Kish/yr sales, before they are no longer as fashionable; all the regular custs already have their copy; and sales plummet....the mkt realities of selling $150Kish GT cars to real-world buyers vs impressing a bunch of N-ring/0-xxx/xxxhp-obsessed rennteamers, many of whom aren't serious prospective buyers anyway....




    VKSF,

    You've hit a home run with this bit of commentary.

    The RennTeam crowd is tough to please on a number of fronts. The most vocal and critical posters do not represent a fair cross-section of actual prospective buyers for any of the cars mentioned. While they may reasonably represent the attitudes of their close circle of friends, that's a far cry from being "average" real customers for these cars. Real customers come from very diverse walks of life with much less "expert" information to work with, or even care about.

    I recall being pretty skeptical of just how badly Aston Martin, Lamborghini, etc. could possibly hurt Porsche's sales with their newest cars. There was a lot of doom-and-gloom prognosticating in many of those threads gone by. But, where are we today? Is Porsche sliding down the tubes of failing sales? I hardly think so.

    Why could this be? As VKSF ably observes, there's a whole bunch more to winning over a solid piece of market share than getting a few good reviews from RennTeam posters. Long-term brand reputation across the whole of the general public is very important. Psychographics are just as valuable as technology.

    I think the "it's never enough" attitude I see in a number of threads on RennTeam is a sort of syndrome of insatiable expectations. Some call it hedonic adaptation.(Click me)

    Maybe there is something more to the term "Car Junky" than is commonly realized. What will one do for their next fix? Will it drive anyone over the edge of reason? It seems to make some posters hyper-critical of things they haven't personally experienced and a few seem to turn nasty when they can't have what they imagined they deserve.

    Maybe RennTeam serves as a kind of internet drug for some who can never get enough of anything.

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    VKSF said: ... cars like SL55/997TT tend to have a 3yr product-cycle window of robust, 5Kish/yr sales, before they are no longer as fashionable; all the regular custs already have their copy; and sales plummet....the mkt realities of selling $150Kish GT cars to real-world buyers vs impressing a bunch of N-ring/0-xxx/xxxhp-obsessed rennteamers, many of whom aren't serious prospective buyers anyway....




    VKSF,

    You've hit a home run with this bit of commentary.

    The RennTeam crowd is tough to please on a number of fronts. The most vocal and critical posters do not represent a fair cross-section of actual prospective buyers for any of the cars mentioned. While they may reasonably represent the attitudes of their close circle of friends, that's a far cry from being "average" real customers for these cars. Real customers come from very diverse walks of life with much less "expert" information to work with, or even care about.

    I recall being pretty skeptical of just how badly Aston Martin, Lamborghini, etc. could possibly hurt Porsche's sales with their newest cars. There was a lot of doom-and-gloom prognosticating in many of those threads gone by. But, where are we today? Is Porsche sliding down the tubes of failing sales? I hardly think so.

    Why could this be? As VKSF ably observes, there's a whole bunch more to winning over a solid piece of market share than getting a few good reviews from RennTeam posters. Long-term brand reputation across the whole of the general public is very important. Psychographics are just as valuable as technology.

    I think the "it's never enough" attitude I see in a number of threads on RennTeam is a sort of syndrome of insatiable expectations. Some call it hedonic adaptation.(Click me)

    Maybe there is something more to the term "Car Junky" than is commonly realized. What will one do for their next fix? Will it drive anyone over the edge of reason? It seems to make some posters hyper-critical of things they haven't personally experienced and a few seem to turn nasty when they can't have what they imagined they deserve.

    Maybe RennTeam serves as a kind of internet drug for some who can never get enough of anything.



    Maybe you are right.

    However, those "few critical" rennteamers might just be the first who observe what is going wrong at Porsche?

    Maybe the "masses" will adopt their views and follow those crazy rennteamers just a little bit later.

    Who knows. Time will tell.

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    You obviously missed my point.

    By the way, if you had done your homework you'd know that PCGT's have been selling below list price. Perhaps that explains Porsche's decision to discontinue the line?


    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    mp said:
    By the way, if you had done your homework you'd know that PCGT's have been selling below list price. Perhaps that explains Porsche's decision to discontinue the line?





    Oh boy. You are new around here!

    Edit: Just so you don't misunderstand that comment:

    Welcome to rennteam. But you obviously don't know how funny it is when you accuse Mike of not having done his homework on the Carrera GT!

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    mp said:
    You obviously missed my point.

    By the way, if you had done your homework you'd know that PCGT's have been selling below list price. Perhaps that explains Porsche's decision to discontinue the line?





    Porsche's decision to discontinue the Carrera GT is simple: they build all cars they wanted to build. Limited series, my friend. Even if there are still some cars unsold and even if the prices dropped, Porsche's decision to stop CGT production was NOT based on sales figures but on the limited series.

    And for your information: Mike owns a Carrera GT.

    A friendly advice for novice Users: Rennteam.com is not the usual "egofreakyplaystationusershow" but a forum full of actual owners of the cars discussed. Meaning: we have high standards and an even tougher audience.

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    ...Keep in mind that the 997TT will remain at its present level for several years while the competition 430, Gallardo, AM, MB, Corvette will have major improvements over the next few years...



    So? Then there will be the 997 tt S and the GT2. And after that, or somewhere during that period, there will be an upgrade and a package to sell out the last turbo's on the shelf, like the 996 tts and the Cayenne TurboS... it is an ongoin cyle, and obviously, the lifecycle of Lambo, porsche and ferrari might not be in the same phase... who cares?-Joost-

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Maybe RennTeam serves as a kind of internet drug for some who can never get enough of anything.



    Well...it would fit my profession. So you're actually suggesting to charge people for using Rennteam.com? How much? 200 bucks for an hour? 500?

    Mike, you're comments are always right on the spot, no wonder you're THAT succesful.

    Yes, I'm a car junky too and I find myself looking for more power, more speed, more...don't know what. It is some sort of drug like you said. I need it to be able to overcome everyday life with two littls kids and a real life job.
    Although Rennteam takes a lot of time and I'm sometimes thinking of "moving on", I couldn't be without it. So I suppose this makes me a drug addict now.

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    mp said:
    You obviously missed my point.

    By the way, if you had done your homework you'd know that PCGT's have been selling below list price. Perhaps that explains Porsche's decision to discontinue the line?





    In part you are correct. Porsche had great hope to sell 1500 CGTs, but, when they realized the market was nearly saturated for half $million supercars - at least ones with the Porsche badge on them - they decided to scaled back to 1250. Even so, the demand is virtually nonexistant for the CGT at MSRP.

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    mp said:
    You obviously missed my point.

    By the way, if you had done your homework you'd know that PCGT's have been selling below list price. Perhaps that explains Porsche's decision to discontinue the line?





    Welcome aboard!
    Obviously, this isn't Supercars.net, so fanboy discussions and rash comments aren't welcomed. However, you seem to have simply picked the wrong guy to criticize .

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Its a great time to shop for a new CGT.

    The CGT is great car and you can get a new one for around $379k now, so why bitch about such a savings?

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    mp - apparent you took considerable time to craft your thesis. well done.

    However, I'd be careful at drawing conclusions solely from secondary data as opposed to including primary experiences.

    Your remarks on the CGT speak more to the former, the repost by Mike V is sharpened and poignant from the latter.

    As already echoed elsewhere - rennteam curries favour with a particularly erudite Porsche fan...many of whom indulge the passion with gusto. we speak from primary, visceral, first hand experience...it plays havoc with our objectivity, but is does afford nuance and depth to our opinions.

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    W8MM said:

    I think the "it's never enough" attitude I see in a number of threads on RennTeam is a sort of syndrome of insatiable expectations. Some call it hedonic adaptation.(Click me)

    Maybe there is something more to the term "Car Junky" than is commonly realized. What will one do for their next fix? Will it drive anyone over the edge of reason? It seems to make some posters hyper-critical of things they haven't personally experienced and a few seem to turn nasty when they can't have what they imagined they deserve.

    Maybe RennTeam serves as a kind of internet drug for some who can never get enough of anything.



    Ah, but Mike,

    I see you slipped into the common modernistic mode of consulting with the psychobabbling, twenty-first century psychologists. Hedonic adaptation? That's a term I don't recall studying in medical school fifteen yrears ago. Maybe it's just my religious upbringing, but I was taught that this human behavior raised the spectre of the original "Eight Offenses of Impure Thinking," categorized by the 4th century Greek intellectual Evagrius Ponticus as the logosmoi, and later refined by St. Gregory in the 6th century in his Moralia in Job as the "Seven Deadly Sins:"
    1. Superbia
    2. Avaritia
    3. Luxuria
    4. Invidia
    5. Gula
    6. Ira
    7. Acedia

    Surely, Gula (over-indulgence) labels such behavior 1,500 years before the psychologists re-calibrated our vocabularies.

    But Boy, what a depressing day reading the threads here on rennteam. I now get the impression that critique of Father Porsche is viewed by the senior rennteam membership as "adolescent," only the wild and unruly amongst us crave more power in our cars. And any suggestion that Porsche is acting, shall we say, with malice of Avaritia, ah yes, a sin, in the modern application to satisfy the corporate ledger and rank-and-file shareholders, is interpreted as also sinful- Gula -no, instead, "hedonic adaptation."

    How dare I desire to put 600 peak horsepower in my 911Turbo, and think it could be had without touching a piston? How dare you to want to "blow the doors off" a ZO6 in your CGT the next time you pull up to a light next to one? Eternal damnation for harboring such thoughts! And I'm not even Catholic.

    We do call ourselves rennteam. And I thought we all shared the common bond of fondness for the delimited sections of the Autobahn and contempt for radar-enforced speedtraps. I even sense from recent threads that our editor is becoming ambivalent. Is it nearing that time that we all go out and trade in our Porsche's for a new Oldsmobile?-oops, they don't make those anymore.

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    Maybe you are right.

    However, those "few critical" rennteamers might just be the first who observe what is going wrong at Porsche?

    Maybe the "masses" will adopt their views and follow those crazy rennteamers just a little bit later.

    Who knows. Time will tell.



    Exactly. If we don't give Porsche a hard time, then who will?

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    I soppose this is an explination why i would like to go back to the 1980's

    Mikes right when he says some have hedonic adaption, i may have some type of this, but its not down to a few days later its not good. its still good but obviously when technology progresses the old can become 2nd best depending on what it is. thats not to say an older peice of equipment has worse sound quality than that of its modern counterpart... as well all know the 1980's ghetto blasters are far superiour than the modern cd radios!

    infact if i could go back to the 1980's i'd probibly have the time of my life.......... i'd be in birmingham uk watching the 1989 btcc sierra cosworths thrash around the city centre without the ''speed kills'' posters everywhere..

    decent music i love that synthesizer music, cheap petrol and this is in the uk! , decent cars nice and low 1987 911 turbo, decent movies.....

    the only think i like about about our time now is that we have better technology than 20 year ago, and that medical science has rapidly evolved which is in everybodys interests..

    but yes think i was born in a year which i love just a shame i wasnt old enough to enjoy it...

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said: ... Surely, Gula (over-indulgence) labels such behavior 1,500 years before the psychologists re-calibrated our vocabularies.



    I'm not sure over-indulgence quite captures that of which I speak. Over-indulgence wouldn't account for the nasty streak displayed when the "stuff" isn't as potent as hoped when it finally becomes available.

    Quote:
    I now get the impression that critique of Father Porsche is viewed by the senior rennteam membership as "adolescent," only the wild and unruly amongst us crave more power in our cars. And any suggestion that Porsche is acting, shall we say, with malice of Avaritia, ah yes, a sin, in the modern application to satisfy the corporate ledger and rank-and-file shareholders, is interpreted as also sinful- Gula -no, instead, "hedonic adaptation."



    No, that's not quite it, either. To impute malevolent motive to those who refuse to give us what we think we deserve doesn't exactly fit an adolescent profile. I think it's more like the beginnings of withdrawal.

    Quote:
    How dare I desire to put 600 peak horsepower in my 911Turbo, and think it could be had without touching a piston? How dare you to want to "blow the doors off" a ZO6 in your CGT the next time you pull up to a light next to one? Eternal damnation for harboring such thoughts! And I'm not even Catholic.



    Now, you're about to blow a gasket. I think it's great to want 600 HP. I know for sure how that feels. It's pretty cool and I would wish you to know, too.

    But, to climb down Porsche's throat that they didn't offer it to you for the price you think you deserve to pay is certainly eligible to be categorized as one of the aforementioned 7 deadly sins.

    Which one do think it is?

    Quote:
    Is it nearing that time that we all go out and trade in our Porsche's for a new Oldsmobile?-oops, they don't make those anymore.



    Never!

    But let's have some introspection before we throw the baby out with the bathwater

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    W8MM said:

    But, to climb down Porsche's throat...is certainly eligible to be categorized as one of the aforementioned 7 deadly sins.

    Which one do think it is?



    Yes, I confess, I confess. Most certainly Ira (Wrath).
    Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. I holdeth mine henceforth.

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    I find some truth in both the porsche faithful and the skeptics, yes porsche has to turn a profit and sell what ppl (the majority want) a GT....however, they also know that they cant "skimp" on the things that make it a porsche turbo, i.e. dry sump block, innovative technologies, etc....the fact that a GT2 and maybe GT1 are coming doesnt hurt, just pick the one that fits you....at the same time, i understand that the development potential of a rear flat six is coming to and end at some point, but its super competant at the moment...this engine can makes TONS more power I believe...

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    ONly part that annoys is the marketing positiong; such as why the turbo has 480 hp and not 550 etc...bc there must be a reason to charge more, but on well...

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    BMCG said:

    As already echoed elsewhere - rennteam curries favour with a particularly erudite Porsche fan...many of whom indulge the passion with gusto. we speak from primary, visceral, first hand experience...it plays havoc with our objectivity, but is does afford nuance and depth to our opinions.



    This should be the offical motto of rennteam

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Unfortunately, you just used up whatever credibility honeymoon is ordinarily extended to new posters.




    The honeymoon is over in 3 posts? Blimey!

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Unfortunately, you just used up whatever credibility honeymoon is ordinarily extended to new posters.




    The honeymoon is over in 3 posts? Blimey!



    Actually, it was 1 when I last checked .

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Unfortunately, you just used up whatever credibility honeymoon is ordinarily extended to new posters.




    The honeymoon is over in 3 posts? Blimey!



    Actually, it was 1 when I last checked .



    Golly. Overboost is supposed to last longer. LOL.

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    I have to hand to you Mike. Here you sit with a 610hp race car which is street legal and lecture those that are disappointed with the power output of the 997TT as being hard and unreasonable to Porsche.

    Tell me is there anything Porsche can do to you which would generate a negative reaction from you? My God the way they marketed the CGT leading to its historical abysmal resale value should get your juices flowing and giving Porsche a piece of your mind. But alas, when it comes to Porsche you as well as many others turn your cheek and say God Bliss Porsche.

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I have to hand to you Mike......

    ..... when it comes to Porsche you as well as many others turn your cheek and say God Bliss Porsche.



    Mike V,

    When you say "God Bliss Porsche", what exactly do you mean?

    Is "Bliss" some expletive that neither Richard Nixon nor I have ever used because we didn't know what it meant?

    I think we should be told.

    It's too late for Tricky Dicky, but I'd like to to know just in case I might feel inclined some day to say "God Bliss Porsche".

    Re: Malcontent in Turbo Land: An Explanation

    It is slang for Ohio residents.

     
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