Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    Would someone explain why paddles should be on the column, not the wheel? Seems like you want them on the wheel so you can shift as you turn if necessary.  What am I missing here?  Thanks in advance.


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    I assume it is because: (1) the paddles would always be in the same place (2) it's what people are used to on other cars (3) it wouldn't involve 'searching' for the paddles if one is in mid-turn but where one's hands are no longer in the '10 to 2' position.

    At the end of the day, it just comes down to what people are used to IMHO...


    --

    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    Wonderbar:

    Would someone explain why paddles should be on the column, not the wheel? Seems like you want them on the wheel so you can shift as you turn if necessary.  What am I missing here?  Thanks in advance.

    Interesting question, I think it comes down to how you should hold the steering wheel and when it's ok to shift?


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    easy_rider911:

    I assume it is because: (1) the paddles would always be in the same place (2) it's what people are used to on other cars (3) it wouldn't involve 'searching' for the paddles if one is in mid-turn but where one's hands are no longer in the '10 to 2' position.

    At the end of the day, it just comes down to what people are used to IMHO...

    Yes to all points. And no one has mentioned this and I could be off, but just from looking at the pictures I see another problem: the new moving PDK paddles are different from the previous PDK buttons in an important way. Here is why:

    1. The previous PDK buttons move with steering wheel, but up and down shift are in both buttons and are the same motion, forward for one shift, backward for the other. You can't choose the "wrong" button because both function similarly.

    2. The new PDK paddles move with the steering wheel, but down shift is in one paddle and up is in the other. I see great potential for mis-shifting as they move around and one loses track of their position.

    So of the 3 choices:
    a. Fixed paddles
    b. Moving buttons
    c. Moving paddles

    C might actually be the WORST possible combination of all the features Smiley. I guess we'll see what the reviewers have to say.

    paddle.jpg

    1249679025035pdk button.jpg
    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    easy_rider911:

    I assume it is because: (1) the paddles would always be in the same place (2) it's what people are used to on other cars (3) it wouldn't involve 'searching' for the paddles if one is in mid-turn but where one's hands are no longer in the '10 to 2' position.


    All true. Smiley
    You could also have added   "....... but you shouldn't be changing gears in mid-turn anyway". Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    fritz:
    easy_rider911:

    I assume it is because: (1) the paddles would always be in the same place (2) it's what people are used to on other cars (3) it wouldn't involve 'searching' for the paddles if one is in mid-turn but where one's hands are no longer in the '10 to 2' position.


    All true. Smiley
    You could also have added   "....... but you shouldn't be changing gears in mid-turn anyway". Smiley

    I can't resist replying...

    (start rant)

    If you lose track of the position of your steering wheel, you shouldn't be driving a car like this.

    Not changing gears in mid-turn? You've got to be kidding, right? Try going around parabolica in Monza without shifting gears mid-turn... Most long "unwinding" corners should be taken while upshifting mid-corner.

    I suppose people saying you shouldn't change gears mid-corner are the same people who are saying you should always brake in a straight line.

    (rant over)

     


    --
    2007 997 C2, GT-Silver, 19" Classic, PASM

    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    Wonderbar:

    Would someone explain why paddles should be on the column, not the wheel? Seems like you want them on the wheel so you can shift as you turn if necessary.  What am I missing here?  Thanks in advance.

    As Easy and some of the others pointed out, that only works if you keep your hands at the 10 to 2 position. If you're negotiating a very tight turn like a hairpin you might have to let go of the 10 to 2 position to turn the wheel more and it will be very easy to loose track of where the paddles are. F ex if you turn the wheel 1 1/2 rotations so that the top of the wheel is at the bottom, the paddles will be reversed so that the + (change up) is on the left side (and the paddle is upside down)

    With the paddles on the coloumn they're always in the same place and you can take one hand briefly off the wheel to change gear even when driving/turning very actively.  


    --

    10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"

    20 GOTO 10

    30 RUN


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

     

    500 hp? thats it? they should have brought that out like 3 years ago.

    The turbo stands no chance anymore.


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    SlvSurfer:

     

    500 hp? thats it? they should have brought that out like 3 years ago.

    The turbo stands no chance anymore.

     Why is that? Even with 480hp there were few cars out there which were faster. A GTR for example is slower in the straight line even compared to a TT with 480hp. Now, if they upgrade to 500hp: which cars are faster?

    The critical point is track performance. The pre-FL TT suffered from its AWD setup. With a new AWD setup and the most recent Cup tires the TT might match the GTR lap times (but be able to do more than just 1-2 laps before overheating).

    What else should one ask for? And then: there is also the GT2 if the TT is not fast enough Smiley


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    Wonderbar:

    Would someone explain why paddles should be on the column, not the wheel? Seems like you want them on the wheel so you can shift as you turn if necessary.  What am I missing here?  Thanks in advance.


     

    Having the paddles stay on the column ensures no matter how one turns the wheel, one can always find them

    Imagine the manual shifter rotates as one turns, so 1,3,5 might be straight up when going straight, but they will be left when one turns left and right when turning right, and if the turn is tight enough, 1,3,5 might needs to be slotted backwards, see how frustrating that will be?

    Ferrari absolutely got it right the with fixed big paddles on the columns, BMW had them rotates with the wheel but at least the shifter stays and one can always ignore the useless ones on the wheel and use the floor one.


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    activa:
    fritz:
    easy_rider911:

    I assume it is because: (1) the paddles would always be in the same place (2) it's what people are used to on other cars (3) it wouldn't involve 'searching' for the paddles if one is in mid-turn but where one's hands are no longer in the '10 to 2' position.


    All true. Smiley
    You could also have added   "....... but you shouldn't be changing gears in mid-turn anyway". Smiley

    I can't resist replying...

    (start rant)

    If you lose track of the position of your steering wheel, you shouldn't be driving a car like this.

    Not changing gears in mid-turn? You've got to be kidding, right? Try going around parabolica in Monza without shifting gears mid-turn... Most long "unwinding" corners should be taken while upshifting mid-corner.

    I suppose people saying you shouldn't change gears mid-corner are the same people who are saying you should always brake in a straight line.

    (rant over)

     


    I take your point about  accelerating out of long, "low-steering-angle" corners and won't get involved in a semantic discussion of whether they really qualify for the use of the expression "mid-turn" as intended here. Smiley 

    Maybe we can agree on: "If you lose track of the position of your steering wheel, you shouldn't be changing gears in mid-turn anyway"? Smiley 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    The 'new' torque vector system is similiar to X6 and possiblly GT-R's awd system, with it GT-R can kind of skirt around the laws of physics to make an elephant goes around a turn faster, which is the primary advantage it has over the original Turbo.

    I have to imagine the .2 Turbo with PDK and new awd system will be again another golden benchmark for others to shoot at, once the competitions caught up with the .2, Porsche more than likely will again have something a little better, keep raising the bar little by little.


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    I've just spent a very interesting evening configuring a fully loaded 997.2 TT on the German Porsche website. It's easy to spend 190 thousand Euros 


    --

    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    Whoopsy:

    The 'new' torque vector system is similiar to X6 and possiblly GT-R's awd system, with it GT-R can kind of skirt around the laws of physics to make an elephant goes around a turn faster, which is the primary advantage it has over the original Turbo.

    I have to imagine the .2 Turbo with PDK and new awd system will be again another golden benchmark for others to shoot at, once the competitions caught up with the .2, Porsche more than likely will again have something a little better, keep raising the bar little by little.


    +1

    Nothing surprising, but a nice Porsche evolutionary step in the 911 turbo books Smiley


    --

    1980 Mercedes-Benz 240d 2.4L Diesel 74 hp Olive Green on Tan or Black on red (looking to buy) 
    1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
    1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
    2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
    1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    easy_rider911:

    I've just spent a very interesting evening configuring a fully loaded 997.2 TT on the German Porsche website. It's easy to spend 190 thousand Euros 
     

     

    Spending money was always easy  -  earning it takes a little more effort.  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    Reality check;

    First, the TT does not compete with the 456. Totally different clientel. 456 owners usually have owned Ferrari's for quite awhile and those that haven't are speculators. Buyers of the TT intend the car to be a daily driver. The same can be said for the Lambo. Very few TT owners step up to a 456 , lambo or even  AM. The TT really does not have competition in its price range at least until the MB SLS is introduced.

    Second, since Porsche is well aware of the above facts, they have no interest or desire to load expenses to the car. It will sell with minimal advancement.  The GT2 is no concern since its volume is negligible.

    Third, having the paddles on the wheel instead of the column is not all bad. To maximize entry and exist speed the shifting should be done before substantial wheel turning. To shift mid-turn often unsettles the car and there will be a lost of speed and entry and exit points. Fritz, you are right BTW, if I recall correctly, the MB SLS has the paddles on the wheel but I am not entirely sure.

     

     

     


    --

     


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    MB is another idiotic company whose 'market research' goes against conventional thinking, or everyone else just don't want to give Ferrari proper credit and use the fixed paddles on the column. At least Lambo got it and put them on the column, tiny paddle and all.


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    Guys at least Porsche still offers the stick shift ;) Something F cars have lost 


    --

    1980 Mercedes-Benz 240d 2.4L Diesel 74 hp Olive Green on Tan or Black on red (looking to buy) 
    1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
    1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
    2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
    1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    It is impressive that Porsche offers for a same model 2 high-end and so disinct variants (GT3 and tt) with so much innovative features (DI, dynamic engine blocks, PDK, etc).   It only highlights how much money and resources Porsche invests in the 911 Program, thus emphasing how crucial this model is for the brand. 


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    From my understanding, the PVT system decelerates the inner rearwheel as soon as one starts to turn into a corner, transferring torque to the outer wheel. This works in conjunction with the LSD on the rear axle, which is included. That is different to the active differentials that are used by Mitsubishi, Audi or BMW.

    500hp is certainly not surprising if one considers the acc. numbers with PDK which will be very similiar to the GT2´s with manual transmission. The sequential paddles are certainly a step forward and, afterall, the Turbo is still not a proper track car. Therefore the discussion whether those paddles are mounted on the steering wheel or column are somewhat secondary.

    The new std. rims look much better than the previous ones but I still have to scratch my head whether bigger exhaust tips and that PDK badge on the steering wheel make sense on a daily driver, especially on the 911 Turbo which exudes a certain respectability. So why these gimmicks?


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    No thank you porsche.


    --

    Chris '07 997 TT Midnight on Sea

    Farnbacher-Loles prepped!


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    what do you guys think of the "new" Sport Chrono Package?

    Can you still do Launch control or have paddlle shifters without ordering the Sport Chrono Package?

    Should I order it if I plan to do Exhaust + ECU mod?


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    Mod'ing a facelift Turbo especially with PDK is going to be a very high risk and expensive venture. I saw on another forum that someone had spoken to Ruf about the new engine and was told it was nowhere near as strong as the (now classic) GT1 engine was. Also, as far as I am aware the PDK variant in the new Turbo has a max torque capacity of 700Nm and this is already hit with stock overboost! So even an aftermarket exhaust addition on it's own willl probably over exert your PDK box. I personally think the new Turbo is a good thing for people who leave their cars stock, but if you want a better sounding exhaust and more than 500bhp then you need a 997.1 Turbo as a base to do this with.
    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    Ferdie:

    From my understanding, the PVT system decelerates the inner rearwheel as soon as one starts to turn into a corner, transferring torque to the outer wheel. This works in conjunction with the LSD on the rear axle, which is included. That is different to the active differentials that are used by Mitsubishi, Audi or BMW.

    500hp is certainly not surprising if one considers the acc. numbers with PDK which will be very similiar to the GT2´s with manual transmission. The sequential paddles are certainly a step forward and, afterall, the Turbo is still not a proper track car. Therefore the discussion whether those paddles are mounted on the steering wheel or column are somewhat secondary.


    How Porsche do it may differs than others but the end result is the same, it makes a car corner faster, closer to the physical limit than normal.

     

    I just had an interesting conversation with a MB marketing exec tonight over dinner, and I found out why the trend towards dual function buttons over the last few years.

    MB research indicated that their subjects prefer to drive the car with ONE hand while the other hand is occupied with a phone, drink, cigarettes or whatever, and their driving hand resides on the 3 or 9 position, hence the dual function button for them to 'use'. On their AMG cars, single function button is used because the left-down-right-up style is perceived as 'sporty' by their subjects, a la Ferrari style. Their initial button style was considered not 'sporty' enough so they went to the little paddles as bigger ones will be cumbersome for their customers because they rotates with the wheel. I asked about fixed paddles vs the one that rotates, and the answer was it was too Ferrari-ish, and it was cheaper to simply change a tiny part than engineering a brand new steering column. Also, their subjects didn't show enough interest for a column mount paddles.

    I imagine Porsche, BMW had the same result from their 'marketing research studies', maybe they even had the same group of useless subjects.

     


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    I thought the ZF PDK Torque Limit is 790nm.

    997.2 turbo without overboost has 650nm, so there is still room for improvement?


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    temm:
    Gnil:
    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    ...that 3-spoke sports steering wheel with PDK paddles looks awesome!

    Smiley


    Smiley


    It looks good BUT the paddles need to be on the column, not on the steering wheel !!!! Smiley

     

     

    FinallySmiley

    Can they be retrofitted, or do you have to buy a new car EricSmileySmiley


    --

    10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"

    20 GOTO 10

    30 RUN

    a new car of course !!!! Smiley

    Seriously, I will not retrofit that steering wheel/paddles. I got used to the puddles and the change would not be worth it.  They need to be on the column for track use. Like this it is worth less.

    To me the 997.2 is what I was expecting. There is never a huge step forward with a face lift. But Porsche needs to take a big step with the 991, as competitiong is far too close novadays ( if not better sometimes)


    --
     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    Ziggy:

    It is impressive that Porsche offers for a same model 2 high-end and so disinct variants (GT3 and tt) with so much innovative features (DI, dynamic engine blocks, PDK, etc).   It only highlights how much money and resources Porsche invests in the 911 Program, thus emphasing how crucial this model is for the brand. 

    You are 100% right: one could also add PCCB, VTG, PASM, this new "vectoring" AWD setup, the variable engine mounts, etc. etc. And then there is the amazing attention to details: it does make a difference, for example, whether the fuel gauge is totally incorrect on the track  (Ferrari) or precise (Porsche), it does make a difference whether the steering wheel is too thick if you wear gloves on the track (Ferrari) or not (Porsche), it does make a difference if a car produces error messages every month or so or not...

    Those who use their cars under more extreme conditions will very likely appreciate the quality Porsche offers as compared to the Italien manufacturers... The reason to buy a Ferrari are different reasons: you buy the car even though it has severe flaws Smiley


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    Alex_997TT:
    Mod'ing a facelift Turbo especially with PDK is going to be a very high risk and expensive venture. I saw on another forum that someone had spoken to Ruf about the new engine and was told it was nowhere near as strong as the (now classic) GT1 engine was. Also, as far as I am aware the PDK variant in the new Turbo has a max torque capacity of 700Nm and this is already hit with stock overboost! So even an aftermarket exhaust addition on it's own willl probably over exert your PDK box. I personally think the new Turbo is a good thing for people who leave their cars stock, but if you want a better sounding exhaust and more than 500bhp then you need a 997.1 Turbo as a base to do this with.

     

    Sounds reasonable. Just think of the cost of changing the all new PDK in the 997.2TT after finding out that the increase in hp one tried was a bit too much for this brand new development....


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    MKSGR:

    Those who use their cars under more extreme conditions will very likely appreciate the quality Porsche offers as compared to the Italien manufacturers... The reason to buy a Ferrari are different reasons: you buy the car even though it has severe flaws Smiley

    Very correct comments Smiley

    Moreover, people who buy Ferraris don't drive them enough and in variable conditions to realise their flaws. If you look at pre-owned Ferraris they have all done so little mileage.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Press Release: 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo...

    reginos:
    MKSGR:

    Those who use their cars under more extreme conditions will very likely appreciate the quality Porsche offers as compared to the Italien manufacturers... The reason to buy a Ferrari are different reasons: you buy the car even though it has severe flaws Smiley

    Very correct comments Smiley

    Moreover, people who buy Ferraris don't drive them enough and in variable conditions to realise their flaws. If you look at pre-owned Ferraris they have all done so little mileage.

     

     That's true, most Ferrari owners don't make adequate use of their cars. I would actually argue that the quality of recent production Ferrari cars is quite good as far as their mechanical substance is concerned. You can drive these cars very hard on the track - and they can do it.

    Then, on the other hand, their are many, many flaws you will observe on a daily basis which mostly do not limit the usability of the car but still give you an irritating feel...

     


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 11/24/17 2:38 AM
    JoeRockhead
    254903 1613
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 11/23/17 5:27 PM
    Grant
    228223 3480
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 11/22/17 8:31 PM
    LP997
    76457 1148
    Porsche Sticky 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) 11/22/17 9:35 AM
    Gnil
    55998 565
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 11/22/17 10:22 PM
    SciFrog
    32762 316
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo S Exclusive Series (2017) 11/23/17 7:04 PM
    EnglishManInNY
    22219 318
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche Carrera T 11/24/17 12:48 PM
    acky
    12457 225
    Porsche Sticky Next Cayenne generation approaching fast... (2018) 9/1/17 3:15 AM
    turbolite
    9221 59
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 718 GTS models (Oct. 2017) 10/24/17 12:19 PM
    amazon
    5019 19
    Porsche 918 latest news Thread Closed 11/6/17 10:43 AM
    RCA
    538539 5574
    Porsche 991 GT3 RS 11/22/17 10:44 AM
    Gnil
    446282 5791
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 10/26/17 1:33 PM
    NSXER
    440603 4239
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 2016 Porsche Carrera 911 [991.2] Facelift 3/24/17 12:49 PM
    RCA
    249797 1382
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 11/24/17 12:21 AM
    AP911
    242477 2512
    Porsche 997 GT3 RS 4.0 3/15/17 10:40 PM
    noone1
     
     
     
     
     
    229056 737
    Porsche Cayman GT4 11/19/17 1:54 PM
    the-missile
    206836 2458
    Porsche 991 GT2 RS (2017) - Rumors, speculations and gossip Thread Closed 7/3/17 2:04 PM
    RCA
    173225 1699
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S 11/13/17 4:48 PM
    RCA
    159201 1066
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 11/13/17 2:32 AM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    158804 874
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 11/21/17 3:35 PM
    Topspeed
    134214 1169
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 11/25/17 12:01 AM
    noone1
    132408 2722
    Porsche 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed 3/7/17 11:47 AM
    RCA
    122133 1651
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 1/22/17 7:32 AM
    BiTurbo
     
     
     
     
     
    106373 801
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 9/11/17 9:24 AM
    RCA
    106237 1254
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 7/18/17 9:22 PM
    beltar
    105111 688
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 11/2/17 11:05 AM
    RCA
    102193 1825
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 11/12/17 3:18 PM
    nberry
    82949 753
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 718 Boxster (2016) 10/20/17 11:17 AM
    DaveGordon
    79850 732
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 7/10/17 2:36 PM
    RCA
    76982 861
    Porsche 991 GTS 4/3/17 4:27 PM
    bluelines
    64720 247
    382 items found, displaying 1 to 30.