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    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    RC:
    Whoopsy:
    Targa Tim:

    Wow, a lot of negative comments, which is a good thing as that means there will not be a lot of these on the road.indecision

    My ex-Panamera was the most comfortable driving car in my lineup before, but I hate the tiny trunk space.  This one without the luggage cover should provide better space with the advantage of the higher back roof line.

    Yes, Cayenne will provide better utility but the driving experience with sedan is quite different than an SUV.  I never cross shop a sedan vs SUV.

    After saying so much, Yes, I had put in deposit for a 4 E-hybrid sport turismo yesterday.  Should I go blue again, or silver, or white...

     

    You will have the only one in Vancouver, only one in the province, only one in Canada and only one in the whole world with that choice Smiley

    Oh, c'mon Nick...don't be that mean. Smiley

    I doubt he meant to be mean, he just stated the obviousSmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Hate to add to the mirth, but I have a close friend who just put his deposit down for the same car--in white.  Guess Tim will have at least one other pal.

    Off to Geneva today, and will see the car in person on Tuesday at the press conference.  Impressions will follow..


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Spent some time with the Gran Turismo at the Geneva Show today.  Impressions:

    1.  Design is far more pleasing in person than in pics.  iMHO, far cleaner, more sophisticated, more integrated than the concept.  

    2.  Rear middle seat is okay for a short trip, even for me at 5'11.  Was in back with two other journalists, and our knees were not too cramped. BUT there is certainly no side bolster support, and the back of the seat is quite firm.  You do sit up higher than the other back seat passengers, which makes it a necessity IMHO to have the panorama roof for headroom and ambient light.  Also, the real issue is climbing into and out of the middle seat.  Getting your feet over the transmission hump is quite tricky.  The middle seat does benefit from the clear view between the two front seats toward the dash and windshield.  

    3. I think the car will sell well in Europe, not so well in the U.S.  It is a radical design for Porsche, and may take customers some time to adjust.  But, from my impressions, and those around me today, the design (though unusual for Porsche) is surprisingly pleasing.  More tomorrow..gran turismo geneva.jpg


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    How is the trunk?


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Thanks Wonderbar!kiss


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
     


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    i plan to compare the ST trunk to the new Panamera trunk tomorrow, and will post impressions.  i will say, however, that at first glance today, the ST trunk did not seem significantly larger.  


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Wonderbar:

    i plan to compare the ST trunk to the new Panamera trunk tomorrow, and will post impressions.  i will say, however, that at first glance today, the ST trunk did not seem significantly larger.  

    Yeah, the trunk isn't really that big as expected. 

    I still believe the next gen Cayenne is the better choice for those with kids and lots of luggage, the rear will look basically  (almost) the same. Smiley Smiley

    Yes, the Sport Turismo could sell well in Europe (size is still an issue though) but in the US, the Cayenne will definitely beat it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    RC:
    Wonderbar:

    i plan to compare the ST trunk to the new Panamera trunk tomorrow, and will post impressions.  i will say, however, that at first glance today, the ST trunk did not seem significantly larger.  

    Yeah, the trunk isn't really that big as expected. 

    I still believe the next gen Cayenne is the better choice for those with kids and lots of luggage, the rear will look basically  (almost) the same. Smiley Smiley

    Yes, the Sport Turismo could sell well in Europe (size is still an issue though) but in the US, the Cayenne will definitely beat it.

    Totally agreed with your analysis, but life is good when we have options. 

    I applaud Porsche for offering this wagon for the few of us that want to try it.


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
     


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Wonderbar:

    Spent some time with the Gran Turismo at the Geneva Show today.  Impressions:

    1.  Design is far more pleasing in person than in pics.  iMHO, far cleaner, more sophisticated, more integrated than the concept.  

    2.  Rear middle seat is okay for a short trip, even for me at 5'11.  Was in back with two other journalists, and our knees were not too cramped. BUT there is certainly no side bolster support, and the back of the seat is quite firm.  You do sit up higher than the other back seat passengers, which makes it a necessity IMHO to have the panorama roof for headroom and ambient light.  Also, the real issue is climbing into and out of the middle seat.  Getting your feet over the transmission hump is quite tricky.  The middle seat does benefit from the clear view between the two front seats toward the dash and windshield.  

    3. I think the car will sell well in Europe, not so well in the U.S.  It is a radical design for Porsche, and may take customers some time to adjust.  But, from my impressions, and those around me today, the design (though unusual for Porsche) is surprisingly pleasing.  More tomorrow..gran turismo geneva.jpg

    Thanks for the feedback, it does look good on this pic.  Do you you know if a Turbo S is coming?  Probably...


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Probably... But still no Macan turbo S...


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Pretty good video showing the practical aspects of the trunk space.

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Helpful video--I would just add that: 

    1.  The ST has more trunk space --with the rear seats upright-- than the Panamera, with that space coming not from the footprint, but from the higher rear window and tailgate (think being able to load a suitcase farther to the rear, where you could not close the rear of a Panamera because of the raked rear window). 

    2.  I think, but am not sure, that the ST trunk advantage increases even more if the rear seats are folded down, since the +1 middle rear seat folds down flatter than the Panamera's two rear seats.

    3.  Finally, the rear trunk space in both hybrid versions is slightly less than the pure petrol models because the rear inside space over the wheel wells is flat, with no indentions for extra storage of small items.  (The car in the video above is petrol, and you can notice the netted indentions clearly as the reviewer examines the trunk0.


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Has Porsche released a PDF brochure for the Sport Turismo models yet? They've become kind of terrible at being up-to-date with downloads...

    rulesdontapply


    --

    2008 Porsche Boxster S PDE2
    2012 Porsche Cayenne S [gone but never forgotten]


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    rulesdontapply:

    Has Porsche released a PDF brochure for the Sport Turismo models yet? They've become kind of terrible at being up-to-date with downloads...

    rulesdontapply

    German price list...if this helps.

               Panamera Sport Turismo - Preisliste (PDF; 5,5 MB)         


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Thanks RC, it's kinda interesting that the Panamera 4 and Panamera 4 E-Hybrid use a different engine but with the same engine output. I guess the 3.0l engine is the one we know from the previous Panamera S/4S and the Macan S and the 2.9l is the new one co-developed with Audi which is also in the Audi S5/RS5 and the current Panamera 4S.

    The new 2.9l engine will probably feature the facelift Macan, do you have any insights RC? It seems like they use the older engine for the standard Panamera as they already did with the 3.6l NA engine in the last Panamera while the S/4S models changed to newer engines.


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    The new 2.9 l V6 Biturbo is an engine developed by Audi and Porsche in a close cooperation. This engine will be used for various other Audi and Porsche models, incl. the entry-level Audi R8 (coming this year) and the next gen Cayenne S.  I am not aware of any usage in the Macan facelift but it would be logical (if it fits).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    lukestern:
    RC:

    The new 2.9 l V6 Biturbo is an engine developed by Audi and Porsche in a close cooperation. This engine will be used for various other Audi and Porsche models, incl. the entry-level Audi R8 (coming this year) and the next gen Cayenne S.  I am not aware of any usage in the Macan facelift but it would be logical (if it fits).

    Makes sense!

    One thing which I find a bit strange is that the new base Panamera/Panamera 4 use the 3.0l engine with 330hp. Strange since the new Panamera 4 e-hybrid uses the 2.9l engine from Pana 4S, but de-tuned to 330hp. Do you know why they didn't put the same engine in the base Panamera also since it produce the exact same output?

    No, sorry. Don't have a clue. My assumption is that the 3.0 V6 Biturbo is not that powerful (in it's max configuration) as the new 2.9 l engine. I heard that the new 2.9 l V6 Biturbo can go up to over 500 hp. The new R8 entry-level model with this engine is rumored to get 480-500 hp.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Thought you folks might be interested in the press piece I wrote for a U.S. Porsche magazine.  Remember that it is written for a biased Porsche audience...

    _______________________________

    Can Porsche Survive the Winds of its own Change?

    Geneva Auto Show, March 7, 2017

    I had worked my way through the press crowd and was just inches from the black-draped shape onstage.  I knew that Porsche’s new Panamera Sport Turismo lay under that shroud, and I wanted to be excited.  But I wasn’t.  I was uneasy, apprehensive.  The shape was one I had never seen on a Porsche stand throughout my fifteen years of international auto shows.  It looked immense, misshapen, snake like in the front but bulky in the rear.  A chill breeze whiffed down the back of my neck.  

    Was I about to see, dare I say it, a Porsche station wagon?

    Now I am not against station wagons.  I grew up in the 1950s and 60s, and wagons were the thing.  Immense, two-toned/ wood-sided Buicks, Pontiacs, Chryslers, Fords, and Chevrolets conveyed American families comfortably from grocery stores to Yellowstone Park.  But those colorful behemoths went extinct decades ago, trampled by endless herds of SUVs and minivans.  Nostalgic images blended with the shape onstage and rendered it strange, out of place, a retro change for the worst. 

    Then Porsche’s CEO Oliver Blume welcomed the crowd and immediately announced that Porsche had sold a record 238,000 cars worldwide in 2016.  In one year, 238,000 cars! I remembered that in 1992, Porsche had sold fewer than 24,000 cars—virtually all 911s.  Now, just over two decades later, it was selling almost 10 times that number with five different models and countless variants.  That amounts to an over 1000% sales increase!  I began to panic.  Was this success or a desperate, hopeless effort to save an icon by probing into every tiny market niche?  Rear engine sports cars, mid engine sports cars, SUVs, compact SUVs,  luxury sedans, existing and planned hybrid supercars—and now a station wagon?  What’s next, a Porsche pick up truck, van or Zip Car?  In its headlong haste to produce more and more, will Porsche huff and puff and blow its own house down? 

    I did feel somewhat relieved when the drape was pulled back from the “station wagon”.  The Sport Turismo is different for sure, but a well-designed different. Think three-fourths Panamera with a slightly less sloping rear section.  All integrated nicely—no added on look.  Maybe, to my old 50s and 60s eyes, still a station wagon, but an extremely sleek, modern, even futuristic one.  And surely more practical than a Panamera—easier loading, more interior cargo space, three usable rear seats--but with the same acceleration and handling.  Not Cayenne practical, but clearly less “boxy” and more sports car like.  Porsche is testing the market for buyers somewhere between the Panamera and Cayenne, buyers who want practicality and sports car performance, and buyers who are willing to be seen in a rather unfamiliar (at least for now) body style. 

    My “Too much change going on here” concern was starting to move from “It’s not so bad”; to “ I kind of like it”; to “Porsche may have really hit on something here”.  I was beginning to feel enthusiasm, even temptation.  But the reporter in me couldn’t ignore the reality that too much change, too much volume, too many product lines can be darn risky business.  Consider:

    1. Rapid sales growth can indicate success, but also mask frantic internal pressure to expand and produce critical revenue at any cost.   

    2. In the U.S., Porsche and Audi now support its huge VW parent whose sales cannot possibly regain the 23 billion dollar settlement lost from the emissions tampering scandal. Small tails are wagging an extremely large dog.

    3. Porsche is a niche luxury brand whose products are considered by many (including loyal customers) as too expensive.  Luxury product sales are notoriously vulnerable to economic downturns.

    4. In the changing world of urban transportation, where customers are showing increased interest in fuel efficient, hybrid, electric and even autonomous driving vehicles, Porsche’s emphasis on performance and race-based engineering may become more and more irrelevant.  (Porsche of course has hybrid vehicles, but cost remains a challenge for urban consumers with changing product preferences). 

    I pondered these “winds of change” over the days following the Geneva Show.  Are the winds the gentle, persistent breezes of necessary competition, the pressures on any automobile manufacturer to produce desirable products at a profit?  Or are these winds the turbulent storms of a manufacturer with poor navigation skills and unreachable destinations?  I would be arrogant to predict the answer, but I can rely on Porsche’s past decisions and some of my own instincts.

    Inarguably, Porsche has steered a steady and successful course over the years.  The courageous decisions to produce the Boxster, Cayenne, Cayman and Panamera models have been well planned and executed.  The continued commitment to racing and engineering shows understanding of the brand’s true values.  The ongoing focus on new technologies, hybrid and otherwise, demonstrates the ability to take risks and invest in uncertain future markets.  And Porsche certainly should get credit for its attentiveness to customer preferences—witness the offering of an optional manual gearbox in the exciting new GT3 which shared the stage with the Sport Turismo in Geneva.  

    And my instincts?  I am glad I am not a Porsche executive trying to read which way the winds will blow over the next few years.  I would probably just button my squall gear and huddle down until it all blew over.  But I am glad to be a Porsche customer watching the gale forces, knowing the ship will likely sail safely through rough seas.  And I will also admit that Porsche’s newest vessel—even if it's not aqua blue and white with wood sides-- is really beginning to catch my eye…

     

     

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Thanks (from a biased Porsche driver) for posting. Smiley

    OT: What strikes me sometimes is that nobody seems to argue that the volume of cars sold nowadays is also a result of  Porsche pressing volume into its dealerships - in the 90s, unless a client had not yet picked up his new car (...I do exaggerate..), there were more or less no new cars in the showroom (at least this was the case in my neighborhood)...


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Very well written 


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Speaking of wagons, saw a lusso in the flesh finally at Ferrari Wolrd in Abu Dabhi and it was simply fantastic, much better than the FF. Might have to ditch the manual 612 for one eventually.


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Nice article! Fully agree with your view


    --

    2016 Cayman GT4 - 1992 964 Carrera 2 - 2016 Macan S Diesel - 2013 Mini Cooper S


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Nicely written indeed!


    --

    1992 Mercedes-Benz W124 500E / 2003 BMW M3 CSL (sold) / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2014 BMW-Alpina B3 biturbo Touring Allrad


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Great article, Sydney... kiss

    I am not worried about models like the Panamera Sport Turismo. I am worried about the lack of a BMW 6 series / Mercedes S class Coupe competitor and the lack of a "960" which competes directly with similar cars from Ferrari, Lamborghini or McLaren. I get it, Porsche wants high volume numbers but I truly think that Porsche's answer to the sportscar competition cannot be throwing just another 911 variant into the game. At some point, people will get bored.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Sport Turismo Turbo S spotted


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    These green brake calipers look very ugly! Why is Porsche not having the option of choosing the color. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    It have and you can choose yellow ones.


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    I quite like this!


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Massive


    --

    J.Seven

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: Panamera Sport Turismo expands the Panamera model line

    Okay, I give up.  How do you guys know it is a Turbo S?


     
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